This is addressed to a few of the more strident and defensive women I've encountered here and elsewhere in my life -

One of the things that strikes me is the way some overwrought feminists' arguments boomerang right back at them. In being so quick to accuse white men of looking for submissive women when they date Asians, they're displaying their own acceptance of the submissive-asian stereotype. Until a man outright says something that proves it, and I'll admit that there are a -minority- of creeps are out there, you're jumping too quickly to the submissive-asian trope. It's not such a leap to say that you have the same internalized judgments about Asian women yourselves.

My second point is this: how does it feel to have a stranger psychoanalyze and dissect your outlook until it comes out in the most negative light possible? It's not very pleasant, and it's definitely not fair. This is coming from another caucasian guy who has long been attracted to Asian women. I really don't believe I'm so different from most others who feel the same way, especially since most Asian women in this country are born and raised American - "submissiveness", even if real (and in my personal exp. w/ Chinese, Filipino, and Korean girls they tend to be more self-confident and headstrong than most white girls), is a cultural trait, and most white guys dating Asian girls are just dating other Americans.

My first reaction to anyone who wants to throw the "yellow fever" label at me is along the lines of: "Where do you come off? You don't know me". Attraction is a personal, wonderfully idiosyncratic thing, and the world's a better place for it. Why am I attracted to Asian girls? I love dark hair, a heart-shaped face, and I love Asian women's voices. Not accent, but voice - it's subtle but it's there. I even like Asian men's voices, but of course in a more low-key, platonic way.

See? Individual idiosyncrasy. I'm not the patriarchy, I'm not the entire white race and I never started any wars of conquest. I just think Asian girls are pretty, and I'd like to have my individual choices respected just as much you would.

And let me just add one more thing I like about Asian women - they're usually more intelligent, better-educated, and more intellectually-curious and quick than the average bear. That's one that's actually statistically provable, the level of education I mean, and has been very true in my experience.

Especially since I moved to San Francisco. One of my most favorite things about living in my new city by the bay is all the witty, foxy girls out here

See, this is where you undermine your message:

Don't judge me for my sexual preferences, I'm not stereotyping asian women.

PS Asian gals are much more confident, assertive, and intelligent than white girls anyway.

That was a bit glib. Let me do you the courtesy of following up.

Stereotypes - both positive and negative - often have a basis somewhere in truth, however exaggerated they might become. The idea of the asian as submissive didn't come from no-where, it is rooted in the highly patriarchical nature of east asian society. Similarly, the idea of asians as intelligent is not conjured from thin air. Obviously I can't argue with your personal experience; We all know the girl you are talking about, we went to high school with her. She was top of the class. She played the cello, piano, and the piccolo. She had great fashion sense. She could draw, not manga, I mean she could really draw. And paint. She was an artist. Now, rather than assume that asian american girls are gifted with supernatural talent by the genetics gods, the answer to all this probably lies with her immigrant Korean or Chinsese patents and their strict, high-pressure cultural expectations for academic achievement.

My problem is this: you like to date the asian ladies, and good on you sir. Maybe you are pretty exclusive in this... so be it. Can't help who you are attracted to, right? But what gets me is, don't you have, like, non-asian female friends? Are they not, uh, as you put it "smater than the average bear?"

Moreover, who are you trying to convince here? You start out seeming to address the "over-wrought feminists" (and believe you me, some of them are very much so), trying to say that its just a harmless personal preference and you are not stereotyping anyone but you end up telling them all the ways they are inferior to those wonderful asian girls. I guess you pick up a few points for trading a positive stereotype for an negative one (and who isn't thrilled when these things work out in their favor for once!), but at the end of the day it is still a stereotype and every positive you award asian women works out to a negative for all the others. So, what the feminists are hearing is that not only are they not as pretty, but they are also not as smart and that they should accept this and stop getting so hysterical about it. Is it really any wonder that they put that together with the long legacy of misogyny, colonialism, and sexual domination and then walk out convinced of what an Evil Bad Person you are?

notagain, you misquoted me.

What I said was "and in my personal exp. w/ Chinese, Filipino, and Korean girls they tend to be more self-confident and headstrong than most white girls"

There are 3 qualifiers in that statement, and that was intentional. First and foremost is -in my personal experience-. I'm not extrapolating that in any way towards any group larger than girls I've actually dated. Also -tend to be- and -most- are not absolute.

Okay, following up on your 2nd non-glib reply ;)

Of course I have non-asian female friends. You're reading all of these absolutes into my argument that I never put there. The one-off line about intelligence was also connected to what I was saying about higher levels of education achievement.

And besides that, where did I ever say "all the ways" white girls are inferior? I'm not one of the guys on this board that has a litany of horror stories. I set out to say what I personally love and admire in Asian women, and you're making it all zero-sum. I can see how you would easily find stereotypes in what I was saying - but when I was writing it I was describing a small number of girls I've known, actual people. I was talking about Michele and Jacqui, see what I mean? But just to clarify, no, I don't assume anything about any Asian girl I meet for the first time outside of what her surface appearance and small talk gives away.

Let me just answer with another question: In what way would it be acceptable for someone to say they like, respect, admire, love... whatever... any kind of group of people? If I say I like blondes then am I saying brunettes are inferior? I'd say no, but I suppose if you wanted to you could any of that and stick it in the Play-Doh Fun Factory of Semantics and have it come out discriminatory. I get where you're coming from, but it's just too easy to misunderstand when we're making -any- kind of statement about race, and sometimes I just want people to relax a little, especially when it's all positives being put out there.

ps: how could I ever say white girls are unattractive? Christina Ricci, Marlene Dietrich, Winona Ryder, hello?? : )

btw, you missed one.

When I said - I even like Asian men's voices, but of course in a more low-key, platonic way. -

that "of course" means I'm a raging homophobe. that one's a gimme.

It's no wonder you meet so many strident, defensive, and overwrought feminists. I see it in myself sometimes when talking to Caucasian men in Japan or in my Asian studies classes here in the U.S. Why do men who prefer Asian women have to constantly put down white women to justify a preference? I really don't care if you like Asian women. Many are beautiful, intelligent, and headstrong. But not all of them are! And to classify them as such, while having to put down white women to make a point, is annoying.

I lived in Japan for about three years. I spent one year there as an exchange student. The fall semester was spent with my Caucasian boyfriend. We had met in Japanese class and decided to study abroad together. Some of the boys on our program actually told him he should break up with me, his girlfriend of over a year, because there were so many hot Japanese girls he could be hooking up with instead. When we hung out together with some of the guys from our program, I had to constantly hear about how much better Japanese girls were than American girls.

We eventually broke up, and I moved back to Japan and met and married a wonderful Japanese man. We moved back to the U.S. a few months ago, so before we left he wanted to make sure he said good-bye to everyone. We had dinner with his old English teacher, an Australian man who had lived in Japan for the better part of his life. He started out the conversation asking me if I was worried that my husband would dump me for a Japanese girl. It was one of the first questions he asked me, because he didn't even feel that it was offensive to assume that everyone would rather be with a Japanese girl than a cute white girl.

I could go on and on. I'm still in my mid 20's, but after just a few years of listening to this has made me quite strident, defensive, and at times overwrought. I don't care if you prefer Asian girls. I really don't! But quit feeling like you have to put down someone else in order to justify your attraction to a different person.

"Don't judge me for my sexual preferences, I'm not stereotyping asian women. PS Asian gals are much more confident, assertive, and intelligent than white girls anyway."

That reads as a contradiction. Don't confuse the absence of euphemisms for assertiveness. The terms visually-challenged and blind are the same. Consider that assertive women are less desirable and find that they are avoided by all men. You can meet all of the assertive, perennially single Caucasian and Asian women you want at the wine&cheese happy hours in San Francisco.

Jebus H, what a freaking tempest in a teapot. All I was saying was that the Asian girls I've known hardly fit the "submissive" stereotype. Do we really have to parse our words to the nth degree any time we bring race even tangentially into a conversation?

I prefer brunettes. So naturally that means all blondes are morally inferior and probably don't bathe that often. Right.

ps: "wine&cheese happy hours"? really?

d.travers, you don't understand, man. I'm with you. How's this for credentials:

"Goddamn you half-japanese girls, you do it to me ev-ery time. Oh, the redhead said you shred the cello, and I'm jello baby. But you want talk, won't, look won't think of me; I'm the epitome of Public Enemey. Why'd you go and have to do me like that? Come down on the street and DANCE with me.

I'm a-lot like you, so please, hello, I'm here, I wait(wait)-ing. Oohhh, I'd think I'd be GOOD for you and you'd be good for me (alright!)."

Don't get all defensive, go back and read what you wrote. It comes off bad. Those "qualifiers" aren't going to get you off. I feel like I wan't to elbow you and say "Bro.. not helping, bro!"

Real Slim K, I live near SF. I'm dissing a small part of the social scene. Thanks for your support in other threads.

Something goes wrong with once perfectly good women once they settle in SF. The monotopic for female conversation in SF is dating. Almost every woman I met would launch into "20 questions" about my dating status and found intellectual or otherwise ordinary non-dating conversation a distraction. I should have brought a printout of my answers for them to read. As it turned out, the "Learn by Grilling" method thought to be efficient for them worked for me as well. If they grilled me mercilessly for details, they earned old "Sure, I'll call you" lie. Towards the end of dating before I met my wife, I grew to be a wise guy. After paying enduring an hour of grilling with no reciprocation of information, I even asked one to show me her driver's license to verify her age. The few women that were able to hold a pleasant conversation about any topic other than dating fared much better.