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Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by barry payne - economist

the reason big health (providers, big pharma, insurers) generally support government mandated insurance (individual, employer) is because mandates are bastardized, multi-payer versions of single payer that preserve their current status in the system to recover gross, unnecessary, additional cost extracted from consumers - the part that real single payer eliminates when it cuts cost in half

mandates put the focus on risk pooling and take it off overpricing, overspending and overtaxing, under a ruse that if everyone could just be forced into a risk pool, costs would decline - they won't, they didn't under Massachusetts reform, because risk pooling per se is not the problem

private health insurance essentially destroyed the concept of risk pooling by concentrating low risk in its favor, scaling premiums in proportion to provider payouts and most egregious - denying coverage once it was seriously used, through contracts designed to change most or all terms and conditions at will, even retroactively

the result is non-catastrophic health care grossly overpriced with the addition of an insurance component, and catastrophic insurance - the part for which insurance is supposed to be designed - is little more than a las vegas crap game of chance - for anything serious, no one knows anymore what will be covered or how much until after the fact - it's designed that way

health providers participated in the problem by throwing everything they had for treatment, particularly high-cost high-tech procedures, at anyone who managed to get past the front door - once inside, the patient was a mark for the parasitic health care mob of big health to extract mountains of cash over and above that necessary to cover cost of necessary treatment, depending heavily on insurance as a bill collector

today, an American can have a health emergency and even if a false alarm, in 24 hours see a bill that could constitute financial ruin for years, insured or not - it's the flip side of what private insurers do - instead of denying service, providers throw everything against the wall to see what sticks for payment, whether from insurers or patients

mandated private insurance does little or nothing to correct these failures, because they're largely irrelevant to risk pooling, while true single payer, a mandate by definition, strips out the massive market failure of private insurance and replaces it with successful risk pooling, while replacing grossly overpriced premiums with taxes

what's left is excess provider cost, whether by overpricing or overspending, and true single payer without private insurance has demonstrated proven solutions for the problem of excess-cost providers, which are no more "socialist" than the use of competing private contractors by all levels of government to supply most any good or service

since true single payer has been taken off the table, its bastardized sibling - mandated multi-payer - should be buried under the table - the only added value it has is negative - either have true single payer or don't have it at all, and allow consumers the freedom to deal on their own with obscene overcharges from providers, without adding insult and injury of useless, mandated payments to private insurance

Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by businessanalyst
"while replacing grossly overpriced premiums with taxes" At last an honest man. This gentleman has said what most on the left have danced around. The whole point of the single payer plan is to make it essentially free to all except the top 5-10% of taxpayers who carry the load for everyone else. I don't like the idea but I applaud the honesty.
Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by lump516
Unless I missed something, all but the poorest in this country pay taxes, so everyone is carrying the load for single-payer health care. As for the top 5-10% of taxpayers, they often feel like they're "carrying the load" for everyone else because they think themselves far too exquisite to take advantage of the health care their taxes are paying for and also pay for extra private insurance so they can go to silk-stocking doctors and hospitals. Stupid beyond belief and cheap snobbery on top of it.
Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by businessanalyst
Upon further research, the most likely figure for the top 10% was 71% of all income tax revenue(2008). The figure for the bottom 50% of taxpayers is 3%. With the Bush tax cuts sunsetting, those figures will only become more extreme. So yes, if a single payer health system is paid for by general tax revenues it is the top 10% that will be carrying the load for the rest of us which as I pointed out was the point of the whole exercise for the left.
Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by oxboggle
You're assuming a national health system would be supported by income taxes alone. If, on the other hand, a national VAT is instituted to support a single-payer system, your objections are rendered moot.

Any OTHER problems with single-payer?

Any OTHER way to red-bait reform out of existence?
Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by goffers
Hey BA, if you're such a big fat cat, why not cough up the other 29% of the taxes? Then you could really lord it over us how put upon you are.
Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by Realist09
How about we also tar and feather him for having the audacity of pointing out how the tax system is set up? He's absolutely correct; a very small percentage of the country pays a very high percentage of the income tax. I'm not wealthy but I don't have any desire to punish those who are by instituting draconian income tax rates. Class warfare doesn't improve the lifestyle of anyone.
Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by businessanalyst
Hey goffers, you're absolutely right. Except now, being retired, I'm not it that group anymore. It would really help me if the most leftist possible scheme passed the Congress. Except I have this crazy idea that I should support the system that's best for the the country, not myself. You feel that way too, or are you selfish as well as a loser?
Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by businessanalyst
Ah, Oxboggle you're absolutely right. But don't stop at halfway measures - lets give 100% of our income to the government - they will give us back as much as they think we need. Good idea there!
Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by goffers

I'm sort of right in the middle (I believe you would refer to that as a "loser"). But as I am living in Canada (where the icy winds freeze the burning desire for liberty) it doesn't matter that much anyway.

As for paying all those taxes on income. Well first, there are plenty of other taxes like sales taxes, gas taxes, cigarette and alcohol taxes that are not progressive. Also, cry me a river, the highest US income tax bracket is still only 35%. When the capital gains tax cut sunsets it will still only be 20%. I am not in the highest income bracket (by a long shot - as I am a loser) in Canada and pay that much!

BA: I agree with you that the US should be looking for a plan that does the greatest good for the greatest amount of people, and this should not come at a huge sacrifice to quality of service. The plan should be well thought out. I just think the best way to do this is through a single payer govt system (and you don't). Now I am not saying that such a system is perfect (as someone who has used BOTH systems), but there are some frightening aspects to the US system that the Canadian system doesn't have. People still do become financially crippled in Canada when dealing with serious illnesses as meds are not covered for most (unless you have certain types of extended health coverage, you are REALLY poor, or you are in jail - yes dirty rotten criminals get their meds paid for in full). But this is nothing compared to the US. And this can happen to anyone. Just a turn of bad luck right around when you are switching jobs and bam, financial ruin. That is a system that I want to change - particularly if I was to move back there (turns out the weather is better down there).

Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by businessanalyst
I don't say this about most of the people I disagree with but you are are a very reasonable person. My question for you then is how much a person who is middle/lower middle class should pay towards their own health care? Especially as a percentage of what that care ultimately costs?
Re: Pimping Single Payer at Twice the Cost: the Mandate Ruse
by goffers
I suppose, BA, that is kind of always an issue with insurance (which we have in Canada). Everyone pays $50 a month for insurance (some folks on welfare don't pay this I believe - it would be kind of pointless anyway, since taxpayers would be giving them the money they pay), but then a large portion of our taxes certainly also goes to health care. We certainly pay more taxes, even at the lower end of the spectrum. We also have a lower number of stratospheric incomes in Canada, so we probably do tax the working class much more than the US (I don't have the numbers). But even the conservatives in Canada wouldn't dare try and get rid of public health care. While everyone grouses about it, very few want to get rid of it. Ultimately it seems to me that most everyone pays for the public system, but clearly more wealthy people are paying more than less wealthy people through taxes. Because everyone is basically forced to have health insurance (in the same way that all drivers must have auto insurance), it lowers the cost to everyone.
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