Allot of people seem to be trying to debate if its immoral to kill animals and I think that's missing the point. Morals are relative to culture and time. Although I don't think its wrong to kill an animal for food, I would not support torture of animals.

Let me ask you this. Do you think torture of animals is a crime that should be prosecuted? Well, what do you think about the massive animal factories that torture animals throughout their lifetime? Is that a crime? I recently became a non farmed animal eater. So I still eat wild fish but thats basically it for meat.

The problem I find with most people is that even though they think torturing a puppy is "sick" and people are sent to jail for that, the very food they eat are from animals that were treated much, much worse. And everybody knows it but they dont care because "hamburgers taste good." Talk about hypocrite!

So enless you're okay with keeping a puppy, in a disgusting cage barely larger than his body for his entire life, feeding him crap food and keeping him pumped up on antibiotics so he doesnt die from infections from sitting in his own fecies, because he was given growth hormones and he gained more weight than his legs were genetically made to handle, then killed by slitting the throat and bled to death, you cant say shit about eating cows, pigs, chickens or whatever. You can't have it both ways. LOOK AT YOURSELVES.

Yes, torturing an animal is a crime, both morally and legally (although the food industry and the biomedical research field get a pass from the law). How we choose to live, including the food we eat, is a highly individual and personal matter. Although I am a vegetarian, I don't think of myself as the Food Police--people have to make their own choices, and it is wrong to think of the choice as binary (vegan = good, anything less than vegan = bad). There is a wide range of choices when it comes to animal-source foods. For reasons of health as well as morality, I commend those who choose to reduce their reliance on animal-source foods, whether that means skipping one hamburger every week or going completely vegan or anywhere in between. Making choices is what consciousness is about--it is a process that permits change, not a once-and-for-all stance.

Torturing animals? Dammit, Junior, I told you not to waterboard Fido! And forced sleep deprivation on the cat is NOT OK!

Steven, you say torturing animals is a crime, both morally and legally. But to whom? I think eating animals is natural and I don't mind eating animals but what I do mind is prosecuting people who torture animals when the food/medical industry are doing the exact same thing.

Its the hypocrisy that really pisses me off. Why are the factory farmers and medical industry not paying the price for torture? I never said being vegan makes me good. I understand the important role eating foods dense with calories and protein have been for the development of and evolution of our brains BUT I think something went totally wrong when we started mass producing animals.

Not eating farmed foods will not make me more or less moral, as morality is different for every person. You might think its sick to eat your own cat or dog and its actually against the law I believe. But in China, no problems.

I don't eat farmed animals because I'm against torture and needless suffering. So in that case, me not being a hypocrite, does make me a "better person" from the prospective that being a hypocrite is a bad thing.

So like I said, I dont think eating animals is immoral but torturing is (for social reasons). Now if you or anyone else bellieves that torturing animals is immoral and should be stopped. You need to stop eating farmed animals plain and simple. Otherwise, hypocrites have no room to talk about morality of torturing little puppies. Only difference between the puppy and your burger is that its legal.

Seriously, lets get our head out of the sand and look at whats going on. Not only are we letting this happen, we are supporting it. I've only recently started this change and its not easy, but it gets easier and easier and you'll feel so much better in the end.

@Steven Tiger:

The food and biomedical industries provide very useful things to the government. They are well taxed$$$. They make people fat and stupid and therefore governable. They sell us the same stuff with different labels every year. Why would the government ever be opposed to that?

Without animal agriculture, where would we expend all our excess oil energy? I read in some article that it is in fact not true that anyone that isn't me can feel pain. God forbid morals get in the way of industry. That's like fucking, SOCIALISM or some shit. Don't take my guns away!

PETA? WTF? LoL!



Plus, change is way scary.

Those advocating abstaining from all farm raised meat should go and say so to the face of someone trying to feed a family on minimum wage.

Are you reading what I'm writing? The point I'm making is that one cannot talk about morals and sending people to jail for torturing animals if the same person supports the exact same thing except its at a massive scale and is much worse.

Your comment inadvertently leads into a different subject that's very important. It all depends on how deep you go. Almost everything we buy or consume comes from somewhere else and could have contributed all kinds of crimes. Environmental, social, whatever.

I've only recently started my search for answers so I don't have a solid opinion on whats what but to put a word on it, its globalization. Now I don't think for one second that that is the source of all our problems nor do I think we can stop it. But what does seem painfully obvious is that its gotten out of control and it effects how everyone lives.Things are moving so fast that its hard to contain and regulate our expansion. People at the bottom of the pyramid are left poorer, alone and without a voice. The very people you talk about are some of the people I'm talking about.They may not want to eat foods with pesticides but they have to because its cheaper than organic. The people living from paycheck to pay check don't have the luxury or time to worry about eating good food, but our education system and medical industry don't bother trying to teach how eating healthy will save you money in the long run.

I'm not telling people who are living paycheck to paycheck to start eating expensive organic food but think about it. Why is organic food so expensive? Why do huge farms get massive subsidies? Everything leads to so many questions. Why can't people afford healthy food? Med bills? Why are Med bills so high? Whats up with the med insurance companies? Why do they block single payer when the rest of the world are doing great with it? Why does big oil try to hold back the clean energy revolution? It goes on and on. I'm not saying if we can regulate that everything will be better but at the very least I think we need to take back America from big business.Think about all the lobbying thats going on. Its crazy. Talk about conflict of interest.

deepsleep, I don't think we have an argument. I respect your decision to abstain from factory-farmed animal products, and I have fought for decades against factory farming and vivisection. nasochkas, Actually, a vegetarian diet is very economical as well as healthy.

What does that have to do with anything? Are people exempt from having to act morally simply because they make minimum wage?

And why would you make such a simplistic turn toward implied violence? I would gladly say so to the face of someone trying to feed a family on minimum wage. I have told the guy that stands on the side of the off-ramp near my work with that I won't give him money specifically because his sign states that he's a veteran (given the circumstances I wasn't able to elaborate on the point that while he had a legal right to kill people who were acting in self defense, he did not have a moral right to do so). Look! I'm still alive. It's only a measure of your own cowardice that you think such an argument would be persuasive.

What does being poor have to do with it? Everything. What kind of parent would deny food to their own kids because they think the way the animals are treated is immoral? Nobody, including me. I would do my best to stay with veggies but if I'm forced to feed my kids farmed animals, I would until I find another way.

It's ridiculous to think I can just preach to a struggling family about eating non farmed kosher food. If they cant afford it they are not going to do it. Its pointless. Before you even start talking to struggling families about eating kosher non farmed expensive food, you need to address many other things. Like the rich corporate farmers that get massive subsidies and control the market. The problems are deep.

Your view is the simplistic one. You having the audacity to talk down to a homeless vet about not giving him money is horrible. I do understand that war is (usually) not the way, and everyone must take responsibility for their actions but you're not seeing the whole picture. The solders could have been brainwashed, pressured, manipulated. The American people were manipulated. They might have thought they were protecting America. I don't know but to judge someone like that, especially someone who is homeless is fucking stupid. Why is he homeless? Is he a victim of our stupid drug policies and ended up in jail were he ended up joining a gang to keep himself safe where he ended up doing shit that messed his mind up? The possibilities are endless.

You talk of me being cowardice, I am no coward and you are simply a narrow minded jerk. All things considered, maybe he did kill a innocent victim, but you don't know do you? Do you think every vet killed people? No. Who the hell are you to judge somebody in such a bad situation? Why don't you hold the fire to the commanders? How about the leaders who tricked Americans into supporting the war? War is a business. Why do you think you can take out your anger on the most vulnerable? You're a sick person.Your focus is so tiny its mind boggling. You talk of how you would tell a homeless vet off out of your car. Its easy to do that when you're hiding in your car huh?

A change that requires money will not happen from poor people. They don't have time to think about such things and I wouldn't be surprised if most don't even know all the problems and crap that's going on to keep poor, poor and rich, richer. I mean, look at you, you can afford to have a computer,internet connection and a car. But you're still ignorant. Something tells me, just preaching to the people who can least afford it to change to a more expensive diet will not work. Get your head out of your ass. You need to stop looking down at the struggling people and look up and see the rich and powerful that are feeding and controlling this cycle. Its a very complex issue and hope you spend more time researching whats really what. Until then, please refrain from attacking the most vulnerable. It really is a horrible thing you're doing.

I've been there as a single teen mom 20 some years ago, in towns where & when vegetarian was much more difficult and much less accepted nowadays. Just to give you a little boost in confidence, if you and your kids eat healthier, you will be in a better position to make more money instead of less. That was my theory and 20 yrs later, I am very happy that we chose that lifestyle. People do not want to hire people who look sickly as much as ones who look healthy. What you put in your brain is just as important as what you put in your body. The healthier you look and feel the more work you may have. We rarely got sick, and therefore made more money. I used to work more than 20 days in a row sometimes without feeling drained and actually having more energy and feeling great about it. I gained status & started training people at my job. I had to do a lot protein shakes (hemp is a good alternative), some were expensive, but if it meant making more money at work the next day that so be it!

Yes, you go into another very important subject. The actual health benifits of eating well. But don't expect the media or government to actually try to help the people. Lets just get on the next diet and get good lookin!

Oh, and I'm 25 and don't have kids. I was being hypothetical. But my mother being a single parant that immigrated to the US when I was 5, although I'll never fully understand the struggles she had to endure, I like think I have somewhat of an idea. Thanks for the support and I wish you good heath and happyness. We need to keep passing on the word.

jacqueline1110:

That was my theory and 20 yrs later, I am very happy that we chose that lifestyle.

Hmmm, was it really "we" that chose it jacqueline? Or did you choose it and force it on the kids?

By the way, I've nothing against vegetarians, but I resent the superiority complex that often comes with the territory. One that you seem to share unfortunately. Vegetarianism does not make you a healthier person than an omnivore as you like to suggest. Rather, those who adhere to non meat diets are generally more holistic in their approach to their bodies. They run, they eat in moderation etc. It's this approach, rather than their vegertarianism that cause their relative good health. I know plenty of vegetarians who are over weight and in bad shape, not because they only eat vegetables, but because their general lifestyle is appalling. So congrats if you're fit and healthy, but please don't fool yoursef into thinking that it's because you spurn meat.

If I remember you Einhard correctly you are the cynical one who likes to instigate an argument. Anyhow, I was young and didn't feel like forcing my diet on my kids so I let them decide. Of course the through 1st grade it was all veggie, but until this day and my kid is over 20 she still is a strict vegetarian.

And please stop thinking everything is about a superiority trip or an attack on you, it's just a message board, take it easy. I was only trying to say I didn't shrivel up and die from no meat and in fact I feel it has a lot to do with my ability to compete with people half my age. Take it or leave it Einhard.

I think morals and culture are different. A culture can accept all sorts of wrong doing (like slavery, violations of human rights and even genocide), but that doesn't make what's wrong into right.