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Sorry, it's still not torture
by GreenwichJ
+1/-5 Reply

This journalist says it was torture. These journalists at the WSJ say it wasn't.

This journalist cites the New York Times to say that the "torture" didn't work. I cite the equally unbiased Bill O'Reilly off Fox News to state that it did work.

This journalist knows some lawyers who said it was torture. The Bush administration knew some lawyers who said it wasn't.

Who's opinion is right? No one's - opinions are subjective.

Left-wing journalists tried to create a "consensus" that the Iraq war was a disaster. This "consensus" - which rudely sought to override subjective opinion or objective debate - has thankfully fallen apart.

They are now trying to create a "consensus" that sleep deprivation, standing naked etc is torture. To this end, they frequently report in a dishonest fashion. In Slate, Dahlia Lithwick said that one of the techniques was to slam the victim into a wall. Actually, the memos demand a flexible false wall that will not inflict an injury on the suspect. That's a fairly crucial, and I assume deliberate, journalistic error.

I have read the memos. I was mostly struck by how far the authors went to ensure that what they were doing was not torture. I strongly object to having the standard definition of an important word corrupted for political ends by a bunch of ultra-partisan American flacks.


WSJ
by GreenwichJ
Actually, this was the WSJ piece.
Re: Sorry, it's still not torture
by Alphast
Inflicting physical pain to obtain "police" information is torture, and there is no way around it. There are only morally failed Republicans and Chinese propagandists to say otherwise. I can't fathom why these people don't just shut up and bury themselves somewhere deep to hide their shame. But no, they have to continue defending the indefensible.
I've said it before
by spruce
I've said it before--your views are morally repugnant. And just because others think it is OK, doesn't make it OK. International law is clear in these regards. Perhaps you should pull your head out of the apologists' asses for long enough to study up on that.
Re: Sorry, it's still not torture
by dsimon

Who's opinion is right? No one's - opinions are subjective.

So then nothing is torture, since it's all subjective. So bring on the thumb screws! Do anything to our soldiers, heck, even ordinary citizens, because as long as there's a single dissent, we can say it's "just" subjective!

Of course the standard will be subjective. But that's not an excuse for not trying to draw a line. When only a few people disagree regarding a subjective standard, we usually say that they're not being reasonable. And that's a standard used by the law all the time.

This journalist knows some lawyers who said it was torture. The Bush administration knew some lawyers who said it wasn't.

Yes, lawyers who apparently failed to note even the most obvious counterarguments and precedents. Just because a lawyer says something doesn't mean it's true.

Re: Sorry, it's still not torture
by celtic

From dictionary.com torture is " the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty". Compared to what our guys were doing, I've seen worse on TV reality show challenges. Real torturer's would be truly bewildered at the use of the word here. You can debate if it should have been done, but just don't call it torture.

.
Inflicting pain
by GreenwichJ

A couple of posters above point out that torture is about inflicting pain.

If you actually read them, the memos are about how to frighten and discomfort the detainee without inflicting pain.

Shall we have a look?

I've already talked about the "flexible false wall". Let's talk about stress positions:

"A variety of stress positions may be used. You have informed us that these positions are not designed to produce the pain associated with contortions or twisting of the body, Rather, somewhat like walling, they are designed to produce the physical discomfort associated with muscle fatigue."

Or cramped confinement:

"The duration of confinement varies based upon the size of the container. For the larger confined space, the individual can stand up or sit down; the smaller space is large enough for the subject to sit down. Confinement in the larger space can last up to eighteen hours; for the smaller space, confinement lasts for no more than two hours."

Or waterboarding:

"This causes an increase in carbon dioxide level in the individual's blood. This increase in the carbon dioxide level stimulates increased effort to breathe. This effort plus the cloth produces the perception of suffocation and incipient panic," i.e., the perception of drowning. The individual does not breathe any water into his lungs."

I think "inflicting pain" is a good definition of torture. I would not want to broaden it to "inflicting pain, mild discomfort, fatigue, or frightening the detainee", because that would render the word torture so broad as to be almost meaningless.

Re: Sorry, it's still not torture
by GKJames
Let's assume "torture" is subjective. Let' assume further that what was done in this case is not torture. Now what? If there is -- as there seems to be -- a consensus among experts that whatever we call we did is ineffective, what was the point of the exercise? Further, if the matter is in fact as clear as you make it, what, exactly, was the purpose of the reams of legal memos?
Try the Geneva Convention
by spruce

Why not try the Geneva Convention instead of an online dictionary.

You may also try considering that you have a very incomplete picture of what "our guys" were doing.

Re: Sorry, it's still not torture
by Fitzpatrick
GreenwichJ:

This journalist cites the New York Times to say that the "torture" didn't work. I cite the equally unbiased Bill O'Reilly off Fox News to state that it did work.

...

Who's opinion is right? No one's - opinions are subjective.

Regarding torture, you have a point, albeit a rather weak one. Whether the conduct was torture should be subject to judicial review, if the evidence that it was is strong enough. Speculation about a court ruling is just opinion, and so is the court ruling itself, ultimately - but the ruling is then law, and therefore, the court's opinion is "right" in an operational sense. You are correct, though, that this question is treated cavalierly in the press.

Regarding the effectiveness of the "enhanced interrogation," no opinion is involved. Regardless of what Bill O'Reilly believes, the Bush administration's own memos make it obvious that the plot they claim was foiled due to enhanced interrogation was actually defunct, and its suspected perpetrators arrested, before Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was even captured, let alone interrogated.

Your portrayal of this analysis as mere opinion, lightly to be dismissed, is false.

Re: Sorry, it's still not torture
by pt_austin

The Obama DNI said in both internal and publicly released memos that these techniques did in fact yield good information that saved lives.

So, the argument that you and others make that it does not work is false.

Re: Sorry, it's still not torture
by celtic

GKJames:
Let's assume "torture" is subjective. Let' assume further that what was done in this case is not torture. Now what? If there is -- as there seems to be -- a consensus among experts that whatever we call we did is ineffective, what was the point of the exercise?

From NY Times, Obama's national intelligence director says it yielded "high value information". Maybe not so ineffective.

<link>

Re: Sorry, it's still not torture
by Chrisle
Okay, so it's not torture and it gets good results. Let's make it standard operating procedure for all US police forces. If you are not in favor of that then shut up.
Re: Try the Geneva Convention
by GreenwichJ

The Geneva Convention says we are allowed to shoot captured Taliban on the spot.

Would you support that?

Re: Try the Geneva Convention
by Chrisle
Are we talking about fighting the Taliban or are we talking about beating the terrorists?
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