. . . without any effort to apply them to the Rihanna case.

Social pressure did not tell her to go back to Chris Brown; the overwhelming social voice told her to stay away from him. Economics is laughable; Rihanna has plenty of her own money. Children? Nope. Lack of police protection? She's the one who was undercutting the effort to put Brown in prison. It's very, very hard to explain the case in terms of social forces and external oppression rather than a true personal choice.

Which is why Amanda Marcotte needs to shut down any analysis of Rihanna's actions by declaring the act of asking questions "batterer assistance". After all, if we think through the case, we might conclude that domestic violence isn't an inherent expression of the oppression of women by the patriarchy, but the result of individual decisions by individual actors in individual relationships. That undermines the dogma of what is not only Marcotte's belief system, but her life's work. Some questions are too dangerous to be allowed to be asked, and thus it must be declared sinful to ask them.

Agreed. I will never condone the use of physical force in a relationship for any reason EVER, and anyone who perpetrates such violence on another (in a relationship or not) should be punished to the full extent of the law.

However, it can not be ignored that individuals also have responsibility for their own self-preservation. If you don't have the wherewithal to remove yourself from an obviously dangerous situation, then you are as much a part of the problem as the person acting violently.

"Blinded by love" is no excuse for poor decision making and it's time that we all woke up and came to terms with the fact there are two parties in every relationship and the outcome is a result of decisions that BOTH parties make. No one party is solely to blame, no one party is the victim, and everyone has responsibility for making their own decisions about their own welfare.

In some cases the victim does everything right (escapes the situation, goes to a shelter, gets a restraining order, etc.) and still gets hurt and such cases are why we should all be vigilant about this issue. But in just as many cases, the end is a result of bad decision making on the part of the victim just as much as the agressor.

Call it "blaming the victim" if you want, but that doesn't help the fact that many times the "victim" is part of the problem because of the poor decisions they make. Asking why they made such poor choices is a valid question that hopefully the victim is already asking themself.

Thanks to both of you for the intelligent posts. This is the first thread that I think really looks at it as the bipartisan issue that it is.

My question is, how do these relationships get so far to begin with? Does the abuser turn into an abuser on a dime, or are there red flags that are willfully ignored?

My relationship turned on a dime. My marriage was pretty good, until he tried to kill me. I don't think I willfully ignored any red flags. Looking back, I see them, but when I was in the thick of it, I did not know.

In my case, it was like the story of how to boil a frog. The heat was slowly turned up until whammo! Mr. Wonderful wrapped his hands around my neck.

Yep, I stayed for about a year after that. It was either that or sleep in my car. I had nowhere to go.

So go ahead and judge me, ask me why I didn't leave and sometimes slept with a knife under my pillow. Ask me why I took up boxing, just so I could learn how to fight - how to fight him.

I just hope that you never go through the hell I went through. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Maggie Fitzgerald:

My marriage was pretty good, until he tried to kill me.

I am sure you'd agree with any rational mind that he did not just wake up one day, and tried to kill you. The most important place to start is by telling us exactly what YOU did to elicit such brute response from him.

There is so much 'victim' hypocrisy that so-called fantastic stories of abuses are often onse sided. No man (unless he is probably schizophrenic) will just wake up one day, and begin to strangulate the woman he loves. Most women, in reality, begin the cycle of abuse. Just because their own pattern of abuses do not leave physical mark does not make it any less painful.

'Victims' of abuses should be honest, and state the facts as they really are.

And, in case you're wondering why Rihanna is trying everything possible to see to it that Chris isn't punished, you might like to know that she KNEW the role she played in the whole abuse saga. She is probably not as innocent as the media tried to portray her.

Yep - because men's violence is like a natural phenomenon - like the weather, you must learn to avoid it or it's your fault you got wet, or struck by lightning.

Sorry, men are responsible for their actions.

Every man who raises his hand is 100% responsible for what he does. No one makes him do it. He chooses to do it, at all times and in all manners.

Blame is not a pie - you cannot say "well she didn't leave" or "she ignored the red flags" thus taking some part of the responsibility away from the abuser - as if it were a cut of a finite pie. Soon, you list all the things "she did," giving her more pieces, and his share disappears entirely.

It doesn't work that way, folks. It doesn't matter what she does or doesn't do. He is still 100% responsible for his actions, always was, always will be. Attach a number on a scale of stupidity or self-neglect (or whatever you want to believe it is) for her, whatever - it never ever changes his 100% responsibility.

You can debate all day if women should "take care of themselves" or whatever - that's fine. It doesn't change one whit that he is 100% responsible for what he does. Always.

No one is taking any blame away from the abuser. Of course he's responsible for his actions, but, there's always two sides to the story. Just because she's the victim of abuse does not mean she's blameless. Does she deserve to be hit, no, no one does; but did she provoke him, maybe? Maybe she's a raging bitch that belittles and demeans him constantly?

we know that females abuse their males counterparts at almost the same rate as males abuse females...males don't report it often enough, and females haven't realized that if they pick a physical battle with someone twice their size, their gonna come out on the short end of the stick...its just physics....

ddave wrote:

"The most important place to start is by telling us exactly what YOU did to elicit such brute response from him."

I'm not Maggie, but I'll tell you what I did to have four ribs, my nose, and my collarbone broken. I worked a double shift due to a snowstorm that dumped ten inches of snow in three hours. I didn't go to the grocery store on the way home because it was closed by the time I was able to sign off. I fell asleep in the chair, still in my work uniform, before I finished dinner (HE'D already started the beer course before I'd got home.) I was still asleep when he began hitting me. Not being prone to talking in my sleep, I'd have to say that it was not my "smart mouth" that set him off. I know I was WAY too tired to pick a physical fight, and never had before. (Never have since, either.)

That was the first (and last) incident of violence in our relationship. To be sure, there were prior attempts at controlling/abusive behaviors, but they were largely ineffective. He tried to hide the checkbook and credit cards, but I'd already become very good at finding things people don't want me to find. He tried to isolate me from my friends and family by escalating petty conflicts or completely fabricating new ones. I am fortunate enough to be surrounded by smart, well-balanced, and completely supportive people who would not participate in his games. Other than small, petty little criticisms, he had never truly emotionally abused me. To this day, I have absolutely NO IDEA where the violence came from. I have never had a conversation about it (or any conversation at all!) with him, because I DON'T CARE why. THe simple fact remains is that he DID it. And that was enough for the police who investigated, the state's attorney who prosecuted, and the judge who sentenced him,. To this day, no-one has ever asked me "So what did you do to deserve it?" I don't believe any other woman should be asked.

For me, there was no question of staying after the assault, but I understand that it is a difficult decision for others. I deal with abused women quite often, and I ask them if they would like to leave, and if not, why? Not because I want to shame or browbeat them into leaving their abusers, but because I am genuinely curious. They may have poorly thought out reasons, and these obstacles can easily be overcome with planning and referral to appropriate agencies. But some of them have quite valid arguments against it, number one being "Because I don't want to die." (If you have ever seen a dead wife in the parking lot of her workplace, less than a day after you've taken her to a shelter, you just might appreciate the power of this reason.) Some women haven't left their abusers YET, not because they haven't been hurt badly enough, but because their safety plans aren't complete YET. I can't find the study that says the majority of women murdered by domestic partners are killed AFTER they leave, but I am looking and will post link when available. If I remember correctly, the number is just a bit over 80%. The number would indicate that it is actually SAFER to remain in an severely abusive relationship than it is to leave. So the question we should be asking these women is "Why on earth would you want to leave? Do you feel like dying today?"

POAndrea seems to make a strong argument. I honestly cannot deny the fact that mad men stil exist. However, it is a mistake to assume that all physical abuses by a man simply appeared without provocation. Even in your case (though we still don't know all the facts), it is possible that some seemingly minor altercation which you may have forgotten caused him to tip.

And I wouldn't want to appear as if I support any form of abuse between people. My arguments converge on this point, that it is extremely unlikely that a normal person will simply begin to maltreat their significant other, particularly to the point of physical abuse. I have been in relationships but I have never had the cause to lift a hand against a woman, and I don't have the intention to do so. However, many cases of abuses reported by women are one sided. They always seem to portray their attackers as these raging lunatic who suddenly woke up from sleep, and began to kick and shove them, while they themselves had been angels in human form.

My point is, it is not often the case. Men generally are not very good at using verbal abuses to settle scores. They would rather use their fists. That is how they settle scores among themselves. When a woman provokes a man through disrespect and verbal abuses, she should not expect verbal abuses in return. In most cases, it will be fists and disfiguring bruises. And possibly some broken bones.

Incidentally, the laws that were meant to protect women are actually causing more deaths among them. One of the commonest causes of death among pregnant women is...homicide, often by their mates. Why would a man kill the woman who happens to be his lover? The reason is simple: he feels powerless by the laws that are heavily slanted in favor of the woman.

Now, what the solution is, I don't know. Laws are needed to protect everyone, particularly the more vulnerable ones. But then.....