A few of the earlier posts dealt with one of my personal pet peeves: the Nice Guy Whine.

What I describe as the Nice Guy Whine is the complaint of men that "nice guys always finish last" and "girls always choose the 'bad boy" and other similar variations. This pisses me off on multiple levels.

First off, the whiner is often trying to date above his level, in terms of attractiveness, wealth or general awesomeness. Yes fellows, the beautiful, rich, smart chic has a lot of options, and you (along with lots of other guys, both nice and otherwise) won't make the cut. The nice guy whine often ignores the multitudes of regular "nice girls" as he pines over the out-of-his-league hot chics.

Second, but in a similar vain, just because a man is good-looking and confident doesn't mean that he is an asshole. Too many people assume that attractive people (both men and women) are assholes or bitches, without knowing much about the people. I know gorgeous men and women who are dear friends and wonderful people, while other normal or ugly people are selfish and horrible to be around. Lesson: just because he got the girl you want, doesn't automatically make him an asshole.

Third, and most important: Most of the Nice Guy Whiners ....... aren't Nice. Many are assholes in their own quiet, bland way. I've heard too many men who complain about "nice guys finish last" imply that simply because they are single, that it means that they are nice. It seems that "nice" to some men only means not cheating on or beating their girlfriends. Sorry -- but the bar is higher than that. Truly good men treat women with respect, concern and honesty. They do the really simple stuff: call when they say they will, are on good behavior for events that are important to her, lets her know how you feel about her and actually listens to what she says. A guy who pays more attention to the sports highlights, makes fun of her in front of his friends, leaves her hanging about plans and generally takes her for granted is neither a "nice guy" or a charming "bad boy" -- he's just a run of the mill jerk.

Fourth (related to the above), boring is not a synonym for nice. Boring is boring. Too often the problem isn't that the actual "nice guy" is "too nice" -- it's that he's too boring. He has a boring job, no hobbies and similarly boring friends -- he often has few goals, directions or plans. He floats through life on the stream of least resistance. He spends inordinate amounts of time watching TV, surfing the web and much of his socializing involves nothing more than 'hanging out' and getting drunk. Sure, he might be nice, but what does this man really bring to the relationship table? (There are plenty of women in the same situation). Stability is one thing, but being static isn't very attractive. Men who seek to learn new things, have goals for their lives, contribute to their community, volunteer, play sports (instead of just watching them on TV) are infinitely more interesting, and therefore attractive. Nice is a necessary, but not sufficient quality.

Fifth -- there are oodles of nice guys with wonderful relationships. When I've been single and looking (I'm now happily married to one of the nicest guys around) I constantly found that most of the guys to whom I was attracted were already involved in serious relationships -- to equally awesome women. The idea that nice guys don't get the girl is ridiculous when I look at my circle of friends.

great post that reflects my experience too.

Love it. So true. I'd like to also point out that they "nice guy" is often a doormat. No woman wants a doormat; she'll never respect him. She wants a confident man who treats her with respect.

Your post is absurd. Women complain constantly about relationships. Feminism was created so that women could bitch and whine about men (there are valid reasons to complain, but there are certainly a lot of Women Studies doctoral students wasting tax payer money on paranoid misandry).

First off, the whiner is often trying to date above his level, in terms of attractiveness, wealth or general awesomeness.

Wow, I guess it's pretty miserable dealing with the inferiors around you. How do you feel about men wearing T-shirts that say "No Fatties"? Sexist aren't they. You can no longer complain about such things.

Too many people assume that attractive people (both men and women) are assholes or bitches, without knowing much about the people.

There is jealousy of course. But women are FAR more jealous of other women. Women love to gossip, spread nasty rumors and slander other women. If you compare how Sarah Palin was treated in comparison to Mike Huckabee (who is just as conservative), this is pretty obvious. How much hatred do you see in the press of prominent men who sleep around? None, frankly famous men can date porn stars and no one blinks an eye. Yet entertainment magazines (and pretty much mainstream news at this point) love to show any weakness in the beautiful women in show business, because women who buy the magazines are terribly jealous of rich, successful, attractive women.

You don't hear the things that men say behind their significant others backs. We hear a lot of bad boys say things that indicate that they have little to no respect for their girlfriends. They're not going to tell you (a woman) about the degrading sex that they are pressuring them into. The nice guys don't make the same comments.

I know why you wrote this. You've probably been seeking a perfect guy all of your life and met a lot of guys who didn't live up to your standards. Some were not attractive enough, some of them merely didn't kiss your ass the right way. I doubt your mate is perfect, but you've probably come to the point in your life that you've deluded yourself into believing that he's any better than the others.

My personal pet peeve is the anti-Nice Guy rant. It constructs an unrecognizable Nice Guy strawman and proceeds to tear it down. I think the real answer is that most men & women are very shallow. Superficial looks count for far more than Nice Guys (who are usually not "hot") are willing to admit. , On the other hand, women know that looks matter.

Feminism came about so that women could get the vote, and then equal pay for equal work, have the right to have a bank account in their name or have a bank account jointly with hubby, etc etc. Do actually you object to that?

I would venture to guess that the original poster, now "married to one of the nicest guys around", was in her late 30s or early 40s when she found him. Her attitude about men is consistent with women who spend their younger years bouncing between "bad boys" and men with wealth or physical attractiveness that were otherwise not as exciting as the "bad boys". I can't tell you how many times I have heard women sharing such tidbits as, "He doesn't set off my chemistry nearly as much as Matt (one of the bad boys) did, but he's sooooo generous!" (Meaning relatively wealthy.) Or bragging, "but he's soooo good looking it doesn't matter that he has nothing interesting to say!"

It's amazing how similar, and so common, the pattern is with such women. And it's true that nice guys do finish last with them. They finish so far last that they can not even be labeled as "nice". Instead they are "boring" or "whiny" because such women do not want to take on the burden of guilt for their abusiveness to the nice guys they have known.

My advice to the young men I work with is this: Be nice. Be considerate. Be interesting. Stay as far away as possible from women who use phrases such as "trying to date above his level" and "the beautiful, rich, smart chic". These are warning signs that you are in the presence of a vacuous woman with all of the worst perspectives on love. Don't even try casual relationships with such women, as they are often the carriers of multiple strains of the milder STDs. Instead seek out a woman with whom you can share mutual love and respect in an emotionally nurturing relationship that might last for the rest of your lives.

While the OP was probably trolling nightclubs and her company's executive men's washroom for dates in her 20s, my wife and I were offering ourselves to community service, trying to be the best, nicest, most interesting people we could be. And that's how we met. That we were fiercely physically attracted to each other, and still are after 18 years of marriage, is just icing on the cake.

The OP's husband must truly be nice to have taken on the ragged leftovers (both physical and emotional) of the woman that his wife probably is. She is truly lucky, although I am sure that she believes that he is the one who is lucky to have captured some of her fading physical beauty before it is gone for good.

Amen Inv Jo Jo. Hopefully some actual nice guys will reply to this post. Non-defensively, even.

Im a nice guy and what irritated me about this thread is that it takes one person's (rather sterotyped) version of "nice guys" and bashes all nice guys over the head with it. Ouch!! Im (comfortably) single - after a long and rather disastrous relationship with a very difficult woman, in my forties, and I dont fit any of your categories.

How did this become about "nice guys" anyway?

Wow -- some widely inaccurate assumptions have been made about me.

To clarify -- I am currently 31 years old. I have dated one "bad boy" -- he was my first and last relationship with a "bad boy". Almost all of my subsequent relationships were with nice guys. I didn't spend my early 20s trolling for rich guys because I was too busy busting my ass in college and working full-time in factories, warehouses and restaurants (to finance my college education). I am basically a tomboy, who most "alpha males" and many regular guys wouldn't consider dating because I didn't waste tons of time/effort/money on clothes & make-up. I have often been the female friend who got to hear the male friend whom I had a crush on, lament to me about the hot chic who treated him horribly. After college, I went to a fancy-pants law school, where I turned down romantic gestures from men who would be rich in a few years because I hated their condenscending comments about my blue collar background, and poorer people in general. I went to law school to become a public-interest attorney, and I now work for the public good and am heavily involved in my free-time with a community service agency and another non-profit. The idea that I am a vapid, status-seeking, shallow woman is laughable and couldn't be farther from the truth.

I never said my husband is perfect, I said he was one of the nicest men around: he is older than I and has some health issues. Yes, his generosity is one of the reasons I love him -- but he earns less than I do, and his generosity involves his time, his concern and his spirit. We work well as a team and share the same values.

There was nothing in my initial post that criticized honestly men for being "nice guys". My complaint was against men who either aren't nice, who are nice but boring, or who chase the women who treat them poorly and/or are out their league and yet blame their single-status on their "niceness."

A man who is interesting, engaging and nice has no reason to be offended by my initial post.

Yes, yes, for every "nice" guy whining that he can't get someone, there's a girl b-tching about how all men are evil and commitment-phobic. The point is, no one wants to be with someone desperate or with someone who is going to judge them against stereotypes right off the bat. I, personally, seem to have more of a problem of men *wanting* to commit at times when I didn't want them to. Why? Because I'm not sitting there all day with my female friends complaining about how evil and commitment-phobic men are. I do my best to judge people as individuals. There are true nice guys out there, butsome so called "nice" guys are doormats, one of the most thoroughly unattractive qualities someone can have. Some so called "nice" guys are also passive agressive.

The lesson is: No one will want to be with you if all you do is complain that no one wants to be with you. That goes for both sexes, and all sexual orientations.

Nice post, but I really suspect that you can reduce it to something much simpler.

To wit: The simple fact that someone would like to be with a particular person that someone considers special, or would simply enhance someone's standing in their peer group, does not obligate this other person to want to be with said someone in return.

I know that Sesame Street and romantic songs on the radio don't prepare anyone for this, but in the real world, Love IS conditional, and each and every person on the planet is allowed to set whatever conditions they want. And since, for two people to get together, each of them has to say "yes" to the other person at some point (hopefully the same point), each has to meet the other's conditions. The fact that one person decides that someone meets their conditions, and would be perfect for them, does not require that other person to in turn decide that the first meets their conditions.

Want to be with someone? Learn their conditions - and meet them. (Like they say, it's not about finding the right partner, it's about being the right partner.) Otherwise, find someone whose conditions you meet, and who meets yours. Sappy love songs and romance novels notwithstanding, given that there are a least a few tens of millions of people on Earth who could be appropriate partners for you, you're in no danger of missing out on "the one."

How's that?

Darrengr wrote: "I'm a nice guy and what irritated me about this thread is that it takes one person's (rather sterotyped) version of "nice guys" and bashes all nice guys over the head with it. Ouch!! I'm (comfortably) single - after a long and rather disastrous relationship with a very difficult woman, in my forties, and I don't fit any of your categories.

How did this become about "nice guys" anyway?"

The original post comes from someone who is embarrassed to admit that she choses her victims for their looks and money. She's either been lucky or perceptive enough to avoid the abusers but has a hate on for all men who don't live up to her superficial standards.

Incidentally, few nice guys are unsuccessful because they are "desperate". They either go for what is available and often regret the decision or realize that being married is no longer a societal requirement and opt out. This shows a lot of confidence and probably accounts for most of the decline from over 90% of men being married at some point in their lives in 1960 to only 67% today.

I know a lot of never married men aged 35 to 55 and none are agonizing about it. This is the perogative of women. Besides, divorced men envy their self control and consequent financial position.

"Fourth (related to the above), boring is not a synonym for nice. "

Right. Women are seeking entertainment and fulfillment through the career or extracurricular activities of the men. "I like to date someone that is remarkable in their field." Very few women have interesting hobbies or activities. Some talk about music, athletics, cooking or gardening, but later on, you find out that they're completely average about all of those things or only did them when their parents pressed hard. "I like to run" means I used to run a couple times a year.

During my dating years, I remember cringing at weekend dinner time with my girlfriends. They would demand that I take them to a "nice" place every week and would talk about little more than the food in front of them, placing the entire burden of interesting conversation on me. They would soak up inordinate quantities of wine, and I'm convinced their idea of stimulating conversation was gossip through wine-stained, purple teeth. All of this was followed by "equal" pleasure in sex, which basically means an hour of work for the man because they've read that they need preset time intervals to meet their needs. Eventually, I wised up, and learned to tell them flat out that I hate to go to restaurants with them because they were boring and moved on.

"He spends inordinate amounts of time watching TV, surfing the web and much of his socializing involves nothing more than 'hanging out' and getting drunk. "

Most of the women I've met or dated focus on gossip about friends after dump of personal issues at work. Did I mention that all of these women that believe they are unique and complex are really quite similar with slightly different lengths of hair, usually shorter to indicate greater age?

The bottom line is that if you are truly a "nice guy", then you are the kind of person who doesn't whine about it, generalize women based on the behavior of a few and accepts the fact that not everyone you want will be a match for you....and this description goes for "nice girls" as well. However, it's good to the OP vindicated by some of the comments made. Inv Jojo, your points are valid and a truly "nice guy" (or girl) would be introspective enough to genuine try to see if he fits these points and strive for positive change if s/he does.