10 hours of school a day plus a half day every other Saturday? That adds up to a little over 50 hours a week of actual teaching.

As a teacher myself, I can tell you that that's not all that goes into teaching. Take that 50 hours and then add another 25-30. That's how much time it would take for a teacher to plan and grade all of his/her assignments, plus more if you count any extra-curricular activities. Unless these teachers are getting lessons planned for them or help grading, I can't imagine any teacher working a minute less than 65 hours per week. With only 20% more in pay, how can anybody expect this?

This is the kind of professional workload you'd expect to come with a 6 figure salary from other professionals like doctors or lawyers. If you want to see the kind of dedication and expertise across the board from teachers around the country (and the kind of talent 6 figures attracts), the government will need to begin subsidizing education like it subsidizes corn and other American "staples".

Oh, please...the time off that most teachers have--weekends, holidays, and 8 weeks off in the summer--more than makes up for your salary 'disparity.' And, c'mon--a lawyer or a doctor is necessary...a teacher, in most public schools, is little more than a glorified childcare worker who throws a bit of learning here and there to kids who really aren't that interested...

Teachers, I've noticed, as there are some in my family, LOVE to complain...and have the time to do it! Frequently!

crucker:

Oh, please...the time off that most teachers have--weekends, holidays, and 8 weeks off in the summer--more than makes up for your salary 'disparity.' And, c'mon--a lawyer or a doctor is necessary...a teacher, in most public schools, is little more than a glorified childcare worker who throws a bit of learning here and there to kids who really aren't that interested...

Teachers, I've noticed, as there are some in my family, LOVE to complain...and have the time to do it! Frequently!

This is a common sentiment among a lot of people who have no connection to education; usually, they are conservatives.

You're right. Teachers get a lot of time off. And many professions make great demands on people. But there is a flipside to this: we have a severe shortage of teachers. They are like any other employee; if they are unhappy, they'll find work elsewhere, and that's exactly what they're doing. So you can dismiss the complaints of people in my profession all you want, but that doesn't address the very real problem of shortages. Those shortages, by the way, are being suffered by all schools--public schools, private schools, charter schools.

As for the "daycare worker" characterization: why don't you teach? Why not do it yourself, and show everyone how easy it is? You seem to think schools go out of their way to find the worst candidates. I mean, heck, with all the vacation time, the (relatively) decent wages (in some districts, anyway)...you'd think people were banging on the doors of principals around the country to get a job. But they aren't.

So what do you do? Is education just not important enough to worry about?

While I agree that the conservative tropes spouted above are annoying, I do not actually think there is a shortage of teachers. I know in my state there are many many more teachers looking for work than there are positions. Moreover, the number of teachers is artificially depressed by the arcane union practices and certifications.

The quality of people is sorely lacking though because of the comparative undesirability of the job. I went to a university reknowned for its teaching program and even there the education professors were not well respected, and the education students generally among the lower tiers of the student body intellectually. Anecdotely I would also say that my friends who went into teaching were generally pretty weak in their original field of study.

The union rules/certifications are pretty frustrating when I cannot pick up a job teaching (I was unemployed for a few months in my life at two different points). Both times I would have been happy to teach for a few years or even sub, but I could not.

Meanwhile I have taught several college courses, had my teachers in high school turn there classes over to me for extended periods because I knew the material better than they did, and if I may be completely amodest am generally regarded as a fantastic teacher. All that cut no ice with the unions, which would much rather have had my then girlfriend who A: did not really like teaching, and B: was horrible at it (she loved music but was not good enough to make a career of it and so went into music/band instruction to scratch that itch). She was a great girl with a lot of terrific qualities, but teaching was not one of them.

Anyway, this is starting to sound like a bunch of rambling self-aggrandizing garbage, but I really do believe these types of restrictions are not good for the educational community. I went to a very good high school and way way too many of my teachers were coasting and/or incompetant, then again society gets what it pays for I guess....

A shortage of teachers--or a shortage of good teachers. Either way, it is the reality. And there is a severe shortage of math and science teachers, particularly those qualified to teach physics and chemistry (a lot of administrators make the mistake of assuming a science teacher with a background in biology can march right into a physics class and teach it with no problems).

I think we can agree, though, that it is very difficult to keep the best people in the job. It's simply ridiculous to cast aside teachers' complaints because they supposedly have it so good. If we had it that good, we'd have no problem attracting the best and brightest.

It looks like we are in agreement more or less. :)

As for the science issue that is exactly my point. I am positive I know more math/physics/chemistry than any of the teacher I ever had (I have had a subscribtion to Scientific American and Nature for over 20 years, just as the most frivolous of examples), but I would need to go get three years of "certification classes" to be able to teach in my state. Meanwhile I could just go teach logic and philosophy of science at the local community college (small town)...or continue on at my meaningless economic development job that actually pays well and has a flexible schedule.

Another thing people undervalue about teaching is that while you get time off, when you do work you are working striahgt and sitting in a room for hours on end. Most professional jobs I have had people take all kinds of time to dick around and perform non-work related tasks, that simly is not possible in a classroom.

Becephalus:

It looks like we are in agreement more or less. :)

As for the science issue that is exactly my point. I am positive I know more math/physics/chemistry than any of the teacher I ever had (I have had a subscribtion to Scientific American and Nature for over 20 years, just as the most frivolous of examples), but I would need to go get three years of "certification classes" to be able to teach in my state. Meanwhile I could just go teach logic and philosophy of science at the local community college (small town)...or continue on at my meaningless economic development job that actually pays well and has a flexible schedule.

Another thing people undervalue about teaching is that while you get time off, when you do work you are working striahgt and sitting in a room for hours on end. Most professional jobs I have had people take all kinds of time to dick around and perform non-work related tasks, that simly is not possible in a classroom.

Move to Texas. You still have to take the classes for certification, but you can teach while you take them under the Alternative Certification Program.

Becephalus, just because you have the knowledge doesn't mean you can teach. Teaching is a skill in and of itself, with its own set of knowledge. As a musician, I've had many teachers of the years. Some are world class musicians, others not. There was no correlation between their skills as a teacher and their skills as a musician. The best teacher I ever had was my highschool teacher who no ones ever heard of. I learned nothing from several of the world class players.

Just because someone has a PHD in physics doesn't mean they know how to present the material to their students.

Crucker,

Those 8 weeks off teachers have in the summer? They're usually working part-time/seasonal jobs to make up for their relatively low salaries (compared to other professions that require advanced degrees). If they're not, most are teaching summer school or at the very least engaging in professional development to become better teachers.

I am a high school teacher, and regard your characterization of me as a "glorified child care worker" as downright humiliating. I took kids who grew up in poverty, those that our nation casts aside as second tier citizens (minorities, poor people, illegal immigrants, etc.) and crafted them into young, thinking adults. I'm also an expert at my field (I earned a 3.7 for my English B.A. and a 3.9 in my M.A. in Teaching. Unfortunately, I am also a victim of tenure; I taught full-time in Louisville, Kentucky, but since moving to Seattle, Washington have been unable to get a job because of a hiring freeze. This freeze is not because all teaching positions have been filled, but because the school system is simply broke. I am currently substitute teaching, applying for work in nearby districts, and taking classes to learn how to teach English as a Second Language.

Teacher workloads are extremely high, especially during the first few years of teaching when teachers still need to make lesson plans on a daily basis. For Langauge Arts teachers, add in about a hundred pages essays/stories for grading every few weeks on top of any other assignments. It's not as easy as it seems.

My point in the original post is simply that with 50+ hours of actual teaching every week, KIPP teachers would not have time to have a social life, raise a family, etc. on top of planning and grading. It's sad that they rely on TFA recruits who are most likely burdened with tens of thousands of dollars in student loans, and take these positions out of idealism, and quite possibly, desperation.

What needs to happen for education in the U.S. to improve is that we need to heavily subsidize the funding our school systems receive to hire more teachers, hire higher quality teachers, and build more schools and classrooms to lower class sizes so that everyone who wants to teach can (and to change union rules so that those who can't teach can be terminated). Otherwise, we will continue working with a broken system.

Welcome to Seattle!

Okay, I'll back off a bit--glorified child care worker was harsh.

However, I'm thinking that this country doesn't value its children as much as it says it does...why DON'T the best and brightest go into the profession when there really is so much time off? The teachers I know make decent money (those with a masters degree), 55k...around here, in the midwest, that's not bad pay.

crucker:

Okay, I'll back off a bit--glorified child care worker was harsh.

However, I'm thinking that this country doesn't value its children as much as it says it does...why DON'T the best and brightest go into the profession when there really is so much time off? The teachers I know make decent money (those with a masters degree), 55k...around here, in the midwest, that's not bad pay.

For a lot of people, it's not even the money. You go into the job knowing you're not going to make a ton of money and that's a part of the deal.

I try to avoid complaining about the stress and the workload because it's my lot and I accept it--but it is a big deal. Just imagine the scenario: one adult in a room with 35 hormone-crazy adolescents. How many people do you know that could get through a day like that alive and with all their senses? Seriously, the amount of patience required to work with teenagers is impossible to exaggerate. We are not talking about rational beings here.

I highly recommend doing some volunteer work in a school. Lots of schools seek out parents or others that are interested in working in the office or making copies or selling t-shirts at fundraising counters, that sort of thing. You can see first hand what the day-to-day work is like. Witnessing one parent conference would probably be enough to make you realize why so many good teachers are bailing out after a couple of years. It can be truly maddening.

That is certainly true about knowledgeable people not all being good teachers, just as all knowledgeable people have no desire to obsessively hone in on one tiny field of study (which is why I did not go into academia). But I have had lots experience teaching at the university level, which apparently counts for nothing. I taught some high school classes WHILE I was a high school student, that counts for nothing. I have been the leader of pretty much every social group I have ever been a member of for more than 6 months, also means nothing. Instead I need to sit through a bunch of classes teaching me how to behave in a classroom, when I just spent the first 25 years of my life learning how to behave in a classroom, and generally observed that many teachers had no idea how to do it.

By all means if I was a poor teacher replace me, but as I could not at the time even get a one day audition as a sub without going through a bunch of extra work irrelevant to the task at hand, why bother. Instead I got a job grading SAT and graduation requirement essays for a year or so, ironic eh?

Crucker,

In my opinion, the best and brightest in certain fields do go into teaching. History and English are two majors that most graduates will become educators in simply because the job opportunities outside of these fields are limited. Science and Math teachers are harder to come by, because those who join private industry will be earning twice as much as those who are teaching.

Teachers do get paid well, and aren't poor. However, given the fact that all teachers must earn advanced degrees, most graduate with at least $10K in student loans with a salary ceiling of about $70K for those at the end of their careers. $55K is a good salary, but one reached only after at least 10 years of employment (in Louisville, I earned $40K as a "tier II" teacher, i.e. one with a Masters degree). Therefore, considering the amount of education and debt that teachers must go through before joining the profession, compared to other professions, teachers are relatively underpaid, which gets to the issue of shortages.

Unfortunately, there aren't enough teachers who feel a "calling" to teach as there are positions required for teachers, at least in most areas of the country, and especially in math and science. Added to this is the imbalance in teacher populations. Most teachers are white, middle-class women. Male and minority teachers are, unsurprisingly, in the minority. I am a white male teacher, and one thing I know would help in struggling schools is a presence of black, male teachers. Black male students see me as "the man" and it takes a long time to win their trust. They are used to having female authority figures, and can be "mothered" by the female teachers, but most have an understandable prejudice against white male authority figures.

These KIPP teachers are going above and beyond the demands of regular teachers, and teaching is already a difficult job. Hopefully, with educational reform, we can attract and raise new teachers. Unfortunately, this will require a complete transformation of the teachers union. If we teachers can encourage our unions to give up tenure and job security (i.e. even the worst teachers are difficult to fire) for higher pay, I think we will attract better talent.

Thanks! What a great city, but I am getting tired of being underemployed. I suppose I should just be grateful for having a job in this economy.