I used to be one of those luke-warm Christians. I thought myself a Christian, based on little more than a half-formed understanding of scripture. I'd never really read the Bible, aside from some short Sunday-school assignments. My understanding of its theology was based mostly on passively listening to sermons -- mostly recitations of the "greatest hits" stories from the Bible, insterspersed with the preacher's own thoughts. Only when I actually sat down and read the Bible, cover to cover, as one might read a novel, did I realize what a morally vile, ludicrously plotted, and poorly written piece of garbage it was. It seems this is not an uncommon evolution. Most of those I know who have the strongest religious faith are basing it on a "greatest hits" version of their holy scriptures -- pre-digested material, which the preacher has harmonized and from which he has removed the material that would tend to shake the faith. Those I know who are atheists, or at least strong non-believers in revealed religion, are people who have actually read the material they used to think they agreed with.

I recommend reading the Bible too, and just want to interject that not everyone regards the totality of it the way you do.

"morally vile?" Really?

Really. The OT features genocide after genocide, including a verse rhapsodizing about dashing babies' heads against walls. The NT rhapsodizes about streets awash in blood up to the shoulders of horses.

I was raised Christian but began to serioulsy doubt when I was in the tenth grade. In my twenties, I went through many phases of trying to "reclaim" a faith I never had. I found that actually sitting and reading the Bible (rather than over-thought twaddle like C.S. Lewis or Shelby Spong) was a sure-fire cure to those urges.

I was in the same boat as Arkady, but I'm now trying to struggle with the complexities of the bible and I'm glad to say that my evoloution has gone the opposite of his. But I think the difference may lie in what we are asking of the bible. I agree that people who approach the bible "as one might read a novel" are going to be disappointed. Also sure to be disappointed are those who go to the bible for proof of God's existence, or those who expect God to fit within their preconceived notions of fairness and rationality. Instead, I think it may very well be that one has to approach the bible with one's intuitive faith in a higher power already in tow. That has been the difference for me at least. Only with that foundation can I look through the surface level complexities to the glimpses of God's revelation to man, just as I might with everyday life.

The good news, as I see it, is that God is a living God, not confinable to a book, and not subject to any one man or group's doctrine. That is why the person of Christ, as the ultimate flesh and blood reflection of God in our lives, is so important to me. That God would make his presence known in such a personal, humble, loving, and sacrificial way maybe says all we really need to know about God.

This is a common experience for many, many ex-Christian atheists and agnostics. That's why it's so amusing when Christians who are trying to convert me tell me I should read the Bible. Do they really think we won't notice or won't care about all the genocide, murder, sexism, etc in the book? Or have they just not read it themselves?

Absolutely. Take the Passover story, just as a quick example. Yahweh, who had the supernatural power to rescue his pet people in non-violent ways, if he wanted, decided, instead, to harden the Pharaoh's heart, and then to go door to door slaughtering innocent children. If taken literally, it was an act of terrorism that makes the 9/11 hijackers paragons of saintly virtue by comparison. It is a morally vile story. The only way around that is if you assume Yahweh is a villain of the story, such that the story merely recounts his horrifically evil actions, rather than presenting them as somehow just.

I suspect most of them have never bothered to read it. Or they read it only in snippets when they were children. When one reads all the Bible as an adult, with an open mind, it's a horrifying experience.

Over the years I've had a lot of Bible debates with staunchly religious people. What blows my mind is that I know more about the material than 95% of those who claim to have faith in it. I'm not saying that to claim that I'm particularly knowledgable. I've only read the book once (a few times for the "Greatest Hits" stories, but only once all the way through), and that was many years ago. Yet, from that one reading, I have a wealth textual debating points that take these supposed believers completely by surprise -- and I regularly find myself refuting their points simply by providing simple story context they were utterly unaware of.

That's ridiculous, when you think about it:

If you absolutely believed that a given book held all the information you needed to make ten million bucks next year in the stock market, wouldn't you read it? Hell, I'd read and reread and have the thing memorized. The reward of ten million bucks would be well worth night after night of intent study, for years, if I had true faith that those ten million bucks were waiting for me if I only made the effort. And yet that's only a finite reward. How about if I genuinely thought a book contained information for an infinite reward? I'd have the thing memorized backwards and forwards. So, it's downright bizarre that the majority of theists, who pretend to believe their scriptures hold vital information needed for the infinite reward of eternal life (and for avoiding the infinite punishment of eternal damnation), haven't bothered to even read the thing a single time cover-to-cover.

It tells me that, deep down, they aren't believers. They pretend to think the scripture is special, because it gives them a lazy man's tool for pushing their own beliefs, but they don't believe it's actually special enough to spend as much time reading it as they spend watching "American Idol." So, they wind up in debates with folks like me, who run circles around them even with only a shallow "once-through" grasp of the material. The next time some theist starts pushing his religion on you, simply ask him some simple questions from the scripture he supposedly holds so dear. If he doesn't know the Bible as well as, say, a big-time fan of a particular rock band knows that band's lyrics, then he's lying to you, and he's only pretending to think the Bible is something special.

uscmjm- You seem to be saying you must read the Bible with the central tenet as a given - that god exists. Is that not what you mean by intuitive faith in a higher being in tow? From there you make assumptions that god is alive in the real world and .....changing? I really don't understand what you are saying. You say god is not subject to doctrine, yet isn't this Bible the source of doctrine as given by god? Isn't that the whole point, to give the Truth and to proscribe behavior and to explain how things work? And the important elements you attribute to Christ contain no difficulties for you? Is this story really all we need to know? If so, then why is it so problematic for so many folks?

Your most head scratching sentence is the one about our preconceived notions about fairness and rationality. It is the way we are built. And stories about genocide and infanticide, and holy ghosts and so on are not supposed to raise any red flags?

I think you may have "replied" to the wrong post.

Arkady:

I think you may have "replied" to the wrong post.

Well, the theists (like me) certainly seem to be outnumbered here. And for what it's worth, I don't take offense, or consider you the enemy.

You make very good points, particularly about those who haven't read what they claim to base their lives on. They are the ones I tend to consider "the enemy." And yes, there are some decidedly bloody passages, particularly in the OT. They can be difficult to reconcile with the idea of a loving god, but if you're viewing god as if he were a man (who doesn't have the ability to resurrect the dead, or to give them everlasting life, and who can't read the heart of a person or have certain knowledge of the future, and didn't give the life to the person in the first place) then sure, you're going to hate god, if you deign to believe in his existence at all.

But it's not all quite as simple as that. If we were face to face, I might engage more specifically in this debate, but I suspect that all involved (you and me anyway) are pretty well entrenched in out viewpoints. The back and forth is just too unwieldy online.

And, unlike a lot of religionists, who seem to believe so as to have an emotional crutch, or in order to have a mechanism whereby they can feel superior to others, I am not too worried about your soul. I believe that God is just and he can read your heart and know whether you are worthy of everlasting life or not, and, at worst, you will simply die, just as you presumably expect to. That's another thing. The idea of an immortal soul isn't actually found in the bible. God told Adam, "eat the fruit and you will positively die." Not "you will burn in hell" or "you won't get to go to heaven." He said he would simply die. He would, by his disobedience, lose the gift of life God had given him. I don't claim to be able to justify to you all the cruelties related in the bible, at least not on your terms, but that's the crux of the matter anyway. Are these events to be judged on our terms or on god's?

BTW, The blood up to the shoulders of the horses part in the NT (mentioned by another poster) is clearly symbolic (as is most of the Revelation) to a careful reader.

Crowe, the point I hope to make is that God is alive and wants to be in your heart. He didn't send Jesus to write a how-to manual. That people ultimately did try to record the events as they remembered or had been told to them by witnesses is only natural, but Jesus' real work (as I see it) was to make God's presence in our world more tangible, with the moral lessons secondary. I would note though, that one of his main lessons was to question the prevailing doctrines of the day. I think one of the reasons people find the bible/religion so problematic is that they are presented with this false choice of accepting today's prevailing doctrine or being told they don't belong in the club. Well screw the club quite frankly. Jesus didn't build any churches, and he was a carpenter so he knew how (haha). What God wants is a personal relationship with YOU not your personal representative in the pulpit or your entarage in the pews.

You ask me if my beliefs create any difficulties? You're damn right they do, but try my best with a humble and honest heart to give them to God in prayer. The bible is a great source of reflection in doing this, as are so many other things in this wonderfully rich life, but don't expect some fill-in-the-blank answer.