Obama made a grand speech with grandiose goals. Never once did he say the word 'borrow'. He used the terms invest, taxes and revenues but neglected to remind the country that the trillions to be used to pay for ALL of this stuff is BORROWED.

If Obama panders to the Unions no small businesses or grow let alone thrive. Unions kill off industries. The same circumstance will kill any healthcare reform. If we pay all our workers $25/hour plus another $35/hour in benes the costs of products and services will be unreachable.

America sits on a huge untapped reserve of petroleum product in natural gas, coal and offshore oil. Now is not the time to go entirely green with energy. The country needs cheap power NOW, not an experimental program. Imagine gas at under a dollar a gallon. Get us through this recession, THEN worry about new energy technology.

Obama blames the mtg industry for our current quandary and he is right. Then he says the bailout is not for the bankers, it is for the people. BULLSHIT. It is the same bankers that got us into this mess that Obama is sponsoring to drive us out of it. TONS of our tax dollars will end up in these bankers coffers. Obama is doing NOTHING to help responsible American citizens. Obama's $2,000 mtg savings will not be enough to salvage any foreclosure, pay for any college or buy any new cars. He needs to slam this industry and get serious mtg savings for ALL citizens.

Then we have deficit reduction amidst all this red ink. WHO IS OBAMA KIDDING?

The party of NO!

OldGaffer,

I am not a party (although my wife says so). I think. I ask questions. And you did not respond to any of my specific concerns. Why is that?

I think country is going in a very scary direction. If you make money you are evil is just as demented as the old line that you could not trust anyone over 30.

What is the incentive for someone to risk everything to start a business or to work 16 hour days for years on end to get to the top levels of management if you are only going to do a little bit better.

All this talk about we won't allow big salaries or bonuses or corporate jets. Why is a jet OK for Obama and not for top corporate execs. Does it make sense to waste their time riding somewhere in a car.

Where we screwed up is that when they chose greed over growing the company we needed to let them fall for their excesses. Instead we give them tons of free money and say they will lead us out of the mess.

Take a look at California where there is government interference in everything and guess how successful that state is. Michigan, where do you think they would be if the government let them build the cars they wanted and did not regulate them out of competitiveness. Ford does quite well outside of this country.

Govt is not the answer and eliminating all pain is not the answer either. Why we have come to feel that any amount of suffering is intolerable is amazing to me. People and businesses have failed throughout time for both bad management and sometimes just bad luck. But now we can't let it happen.

We are in for much harder times than this if we do not wake up and get the government out of the way.

Hey raptor...

If you feel you can't compete, drop out. Who knows? maybe there's still some Republican out there willing to trickle on you.

And, how exactly was it "government non-interference" when the Bush Regime engaged in union-busting? Or awarding no-bid contracts to its cronies? Or awarding tax breaks to its cronies? Or launching unnecessary, unwinnable wars? Have you been so conditioned that you consider all those things a sort of Natural Law?

Hey Eben...

Skip the idiotic blame game and explain how Obama's plan will work. I agree with much of his observations and many of his plans. I even agree with you that the R's screwed up and should have done better. But, we have a President that is trying to fix all things in the best way and all at once when we are in some very dire straights. This needs to be graduated and it needs to have more common sense. Repaying his banker buddies and the Unions will KILL kill these plans.

If you refi you will spend far more than $2,000 just for doing so. Unless you save a huge chunk of money on the new loan all you will have done is line some bankers pocket. THIS IS EASY TO SEE especially if you get your head out of the friggin clouds.

Scoot'r-d:

Obama made a grand speech with grandiose goals. Never once did he say the word 'borrow'. He used the terms invest, taxes and revenues but neglected to remind the country that the trillions to be used to pay for ALL of this stuff is BORROWED. If Obama panders to the Unions no small businesses or grow let alone thrive. Unions kill off industries. The same circumstance will kill any healthcare reform. If we pay all our workers $25/hour plus another $35/hour in benes the costs of products and services will be unreachable.

True it's all borrowed, false that its the fault of unions, who just try to get good pay and benefits and working conditions for their members. At least put some of the blame on American corporations who transfer jobs overseas for higher profits, and Repub and Dem administrations, which have let them do it.

America sits on a huge untapped reserve of petroleum product in natural gas, coal and offshore oil. Now is not the time to go entirely green with energy. The country needs cheap power NOW, not an experimental program. Imagine gas at under a dollar a gallon. Get us through this recession, THEN worry about new energy technology.

No, we're not really sitting on any such thing. We're always going to import the bulk of our oil and gas, as long as we're dependent on those things. And cheap power only discurages development of alternative power sources. If it's cheap, we need to add heavy taxes which will fund alternative energy development. Development of new technologies will not only help get us through the recession, but lead to jobs and tech leadership coming out the other side.

Obama blames the mtg industry for our current quandary and he is right. Then he says the bailout is not for the bankers, it is for the people. BULLSHIT. It is the same bankers that got us into this mess that Obama is sponsoring to drive us out of it. TONS of our tax dollars will end up in these bankers coffers. Obama is doing NOTHING to help responsible American citizens. Obama's $2,000 mtg savings will not be enough to salvage any foreclosure, pay for any college or buy any new cars. He needs to slam this industry and get serious mtg savings for ALL citizens. Then we have deficit reduction amidst all this red ink. WHO IS OBAMA KIDDING?

Agreed, the bankers and investment people caused the crisis. They're also going to profit from Obama's plans, though. Halting foreclosures and keeping people in their houses and paying their mortgages would do a hell of a lot more for the economy than bailing out AIG or Citi one more time. He's acting like a neoliberal here, another Clinton kissing up to special interests. That's not good.

The incentive to start your own business and do even just a tiny bit better is BECAUSE YOU WANT TO.

People that want to own their own business and be their own boss and independent don't do it all beause there's a reasonable assumption that they'll retire multi-millionaires - most business owners are far from rich - it's being your own boss and following your dream that's the dream and the impetus towards invention and investment.

Edison, Gates, Buffett, solo web designers, graphic designers, thrift store owners, Papa John's Pizza guy etc - are you really arguing that all of those entrepeneurs would've prefered to work in some factory for 30K a year rather than open their own business and make their own rules and earn just 32K a year?

True entrepenuers don't think that way.

I never said that the UNIONS caused this recession. But Unions do ruin industries. They do not seek an equitable balance they bleed a company dry. They killed Detroit and they have killed education.

There are inventors and there is small business. Most small businesses are not 21st century entrepreneurs. They will not survive Union labor rates nor socialized medicine.

Slamming the mtg industry would be EASY. They have tons of slop and gravy income built into their system that could easily be slashed. Any America would be ecstatic to get the same loan fees Obama got but they do not regardless of how well qualified.

Obama is owned by the very monster who put us in this mess. He has some great ideas but they will fail unless he works them wisely.

I don't remember Scoot'ard complaining when we borrowed money to fight the war in Iraq. But of course that was more important than bolstering infrastructure, housing, education and health. We got a lot of benefits from that war.....and it is still paying off, woo hoo!

Every time I see some GOP talking head bemoaning "the blame game" and insisting "let's not look back", I laugh till the beer runs out my nose. Jeeze! next they'll be telling us it's "treason" to hold elected officials responsible for the results of their policy decisions. Oh! wait! they've done that too, haven't they.

As for the union thing, yes, I agree that some of the unions have made some terrible decisions -- the autoworkers' "jobs bank" comes to mind. However, quite a few of the constraints that are blamed on unions -- such as the overly restrictive definitions of job roles -- were actually created with the full agreement and support of management. Blaming "the unions" for the myriad of short-sighted business decisions made by management is just one more way of trying to sidestep responsibility for their decisions. Example: Not too many years back, Ford decided to move much of its auto-assembly operations to Mexico -- ostensibly, to "reduce labor costs". Pretty soon, those Mexico operations were reporting huge losses. Mexican labor unions are THAT all-powerful? who knew? Yes, some of the Japanese automakers run non-unions plants in the USA that seem far more successful than their American-owned counterparts. Is it possible that the Japanese model of industrial management just works better than the American model?

Yes, some of the Japanese automakers run non-unions plants in the USA that seem far more successful than their American-owned counterparts. Is it possible that the Japanese model of industrial management just works better than the American model?

Instead of just pointing fingers at unions, one might do well to ask what it is that the Japanese automakers are doing that the workers at their US plants don't have the incentive to unionize. What practices could American manufacturers adopt that would make people want to work for them without a collective bargaining agreement?

Nah, better to just blame unions for "killing industry" and then decrying everyone else for playing "the blame game". Actually trying to figure out how build a productive work force and make cars that people want to buy sounds like too much effort.

car companies don't have legacy costs (30 and out, courtesy of the UAW), so the people they're paying actually make cars for them.

that created those legacy costs? Nobody held a gun to their heads. If the UAW was too demanding, they could have shut down their Detroit plants and opened up non-union shops in other parts of the country. That's what Caterpillar did after a protracted UAW strike in York, PA back in the late 80s. Not good for Detroit, but the company's bottom line would look better.

That's actually how Saturn got started: Set up a non-union factory in TN that was a separate company. Of course, then GM decided to integrate them under their main umbrella and the quality of the cars sunk to the level of, well, every other GM car.

My point is, if the big three had actually tried to build cars people wanted to drive, things like the job bank would have been irrelevant. They'd be paying those legacy workers to build cars instead of drink coffee because the demand for their product would have been higher.

Dump all those union contracts. And do it every time they get onerous.

Think just a minute about how the UAW "negotiated" with the auto industry. They picked a target. Say, GM. They strike against GM and GM only--meanwhile Ford and Chrysler are making record profits because one of their competitors is out of business. Then GM caves, and the UAW has the sweet contract. They end up with the same contract, but only GM has been hurt. Next time its Ford's turn in the barrel.

Now, if the car companies agreed to cooperate and all shut down when GM went out on strike, putting the whole union out of work, that would be illegal and the Feds would lock up the CEOs. Because it would be a cartel. But this union activity is just "negotiating." Uncle Sam has given the union more that a little help.

I hope you end up on the losing side of some federal regulatory or legislative act some time, when you see it makes no freakin' sense, that the rules are written to help some group (and you're not part of it), and you're being treated differently than the favored group. It might teach you that our government is frequently wrong, can be capricious, arbitrary and oppressive.