Extracting intelligence is most of the time not pretty and full of grit. There are a lot of intelligence operatives risking their lives every day getting raw intelligence so that analysts can build a mosaic on what's going on. The Iranian connection in Iraq is such an example. Extraction of intelligence from captured terrorists is another method. So get off your high horses and get realistic-unless you want to stay on your high horses and face a 9/11 again, or worse, a nuclear weapon detonation in a US city. A captured terrorist is free game- he chose to pull his trigger. Whatever intelligence he has must be sqeezed out of him. Period.

And that is what Himmler would have said. How do you know who is a terrorits, by checking their noses like the Nazi's used to do? Why don't we crack down on all pro-life groups because someone bombed a clinic....oh wait.

Scottw, the intelligence world is not pretty. But it curtails GI deaths in the field. It also prevents an attack like the one on the Twin Towers. Just remember that the terrorists have absolutely no mercy and given the tools, they would jump at the opportunity to murder thousands. You can sleep well tonight knowing that very brave people are tracking these killers daily.

I'm not bothered that we are doing dirty deeds in the name of counter-intelligence and intelligence gathering. What bothers me is the ham-fisted method that it is gone about in. We, the public, should NEVER have gotten wind of it. But the current administration is simply too inept to execute a mission like that without the Liberal jackals pouncing on them and crying tears for all those soulless terrorist killers.

That stuff happens, EVERY country in the world does it, only the inept regimes, kingdoms, democracies let the secret get out about it.

"Liberal jackals" does not give enough credit to those who help them, including libertarians and some conservatives who oppose various of the merits at hand. "Liberal" in a classical sense?

As to the shoddy way the Administration is going about it, heck, wouldn't blame them too much for the leaks. The "disappeared" in Chile and so forth had their experience partially aired, and that in areas without the checks against total secrecy found in this country. And, Israel. That seems like a good model. Or, so some suggest. Not only do we know various things they did but the Supreme Court put forth limits to them.

For instance, how can we guard against press leaks by those inside who are upset at how far things went? I guess there are ways, but that probably will hurt finding good personnel, including those that don't want to submit to totalitarian means while doing their jobs. Likewise, too many of them, I guess, were schooled in a philosophy that opposes the path you want them to take.

Can't blame "liberals" for all of that either. John McCain spoke against torture. etc. No, I don't think you can have your cake and eat it too. Have your dirty laundry but expect us not to smell the stink. Really, that is a bit too greedy.

-j

If you really think that the United States is as bad as Nazi Germany, why would you stay here. Switzerland or Sweden would much better suit your ideals. It's easy to throw unwarranted tags rather than seriously discuss a problem. In WWII we had humane POW Camps to hold prisoners, we did not let them use our justice system to seek release, and we did not put them back on the battlefield so they could resume killing our soldiers! When we catch an active combatant in Iraq or Afganistan they must be held for the sake of our military. Most countries that have been in conflicts develop rigorous methods of interrogation that are not torture. In war it's impractical to ask if they will roll-over on their leaders, and when they say no, we just say oh, OK. What is your solution to this real life problem?

Eigenvector, you hit the problem of the head. This administration has conducted itself ineptly relating to its approach in intelligence matters. What has leaked out (and I don't approve of abuses which has been done by American forces in prisons in Iraq) has given the enemy ammunition for their propaganda. However, terrorists, as far as I see them, may have vital intelligence when captured. You're not going to treat them as a guest at the Hilton. Short of torture, you're going to make their life miserable until they talk. Then hand them over to the governemnt where they operated or, if capture here, try them in court. If they are at large like Bin Laden then go after them and kill them. The Mosad has been doing this for years. But then the Mosad is one terrific intelligence organization.

Total agreement with you (in this thread) on good intelligence agencies and the inept variety.

Our own agency is regrettably held accountable to the people, and Congress will often spill the beans intraceably and politically.It is not just Curious George, tho he has been a Monkey's Uncle Sam.

Mr. Putin's feet do not face that fire.
Not at home; not around the world; and certainly not by our media.

Nor our good trading partners in China and their procedures with their friends and enemies.

We are too quick to point out what we do wrong (uh, there is a war going on...and likely coming to a theater near you LIVE oneday).

Balanced coverage would include lotsa stories on prisoner abuse this day by countries throughout the planet.

Not historical crappola. Today's happenings.
Not just USA prisoner policy in print.
Coverage of ALL countries policy and handling of prisoners. Then, we would see where WE stand by comparison.

On Israeli intelligence, ya gotta love those guys.
There has been much chatter over Iran and nukes. I never worry about that. If Israel doesn't think that is a good idea, their intelligence will keep them quietly up to date (provided they do not share it with us). They have a history of flying in, eliminating the problem, and going home.
Mission accomplished......for real.

The Germans accepted their country imprisioning, torturing, and murdering Jews, "Communists", gypsies, and finally dissidents of all religions for national security.

The current administration has done more to undermine the basic rights granted by the constitution than McCarthy with one common excuse--the 9/11 attack.

A Canadian citizen was kidnapped in the U.S. and sent to one of the European prisons where he was imprisoned and subjected to the routine interrogation/torture techniques. When they finally agreed that he was not a terrorist and had no terrorist information, he was released AFTER SEVERAL YEARS without even an apology. If he had not been Canadian with a family fighting for his release, he would probably still be there.

After a year, any information held by a terrorist would be useless, yet we keep the torture going. With enough pressure, anyone will "confess", but the information they give is often false and something the interrogators want to hear. As McCain as stated over and over, torture does not work and should not be tolerated. (Remember that he actually flew over Viet Nam (vs Texas and Alabama) and was captured and tortured.

Note that the administration has never taken any blame for 9/11, e.g., spending their efforts on the missing "w" keys on the white house keyboards vs. taking action against terrorists.

We still do not have an operational computer system linking the FBI, CIA, NSA and Armed Forces Intelligence agencies although this would have linked information that just might have prevented the successful attack on the World Trade Towers.

The reason that we have not been attacked is because it is difficult to do it successfully and we have been lucky. When the Brits found the group of terrorists planning to bomb planes last year, Bush stepped in to share the glory although we had nothing to do with it. In the U.S., we get a bunch of people together and get them to think about an attack then we arrest them as if it really were a terrorist cell (the Miami group).

We should have known about the impending attack and acted, but didn't. We talk as though the terrorist is an evil genius. He is not.

Why is there no anger from the sunshine patriots about the general incompetence shown by Bush and his people? As the old saying goes, we don't expect them to be compassionate, but we do expect them to have the trains running on schedule.

Wanting our representatives to continue to be the good guys is American. Wake up and smell the propaganda that is being spread.

Beef, you're right about Israeli intelligence: they get their facts, know how to keep a secret, and hit their enemies hard without caring what the world community says. They got it right. And they probably know more about the Iranian nuclear efforts better than the US. And they won't share it because they know that our goverment is a seive. So the Israelis are taking their time letting the Iranians build whatever then they will strike with pinpoint accuracy without asking permission from anyone. The Israelis have a lot more to lose if Iran has a working nuclear bomb. I'm sure that Israel as bought bunker piercing bombs from the US quietly over the years. And watch out if Israel is hit by one nuclear bomb: Syria and Iran will become new parking spaces in the Middle East because Israel has the bomb, quite a lot of them. And they will use most of them in a terrifying strike. Of all the intelligence organizations, the Mosad is tops.

You probably think the "Mosad" (learning to SPELL would enhance your pretend credentials as a Big Shot Insider, buddy roo...) is a great intelligence opp because they got really sloick at killing people a while back. So did the KGB -- but the test of an intelligence company, finally, is the quality of the product they deliver, not the wet work, however sexy that may seem to the little boys reading Soldier of Fortune. The Mossad delivered really, really crappy intelligence on Hezbollah and a lot of kids in the IDF died because of that. No matter how many kids theykill in Gaza, it won't wash the stink of that fiasco away... too bad...too sad.

Oooh, Mel, so sorry about my spelling. But you're perfect, so, well. Keep up your perfect reporting. However, the "Mossad" (spelled it right this time!) (and golly, I made it through writing a fiction novel that I just sent to an agent; no idea how I did that!) is, regardless what you say, a top intelligence organization. And as far as wet work, well too bad if the bad guys get blown up by an Israeli strike. One less terrorist to deal with.

Edge, I re-read your comments several times. One thing that worries me is that if ever a terrorist nuke is set off in one of our cities, the United States, being a giant country, could swing its club in a mindless way. Mindless, because many of the current leaders in this country do not understand the cultural dynamics in other countries, and their knee jerk reaction could launch a thermonuclear strike in anger and totally wipe out Iran, Syria, and North Korea. Though the attack on Afghanistan was justified after 9/11, Iraq was an example of a knee jerk response by the Bush administration. However, now that we're there, we need to keep the pressure on the insurgency and Iran, capture terrorists and extract intelligence from them. If we capture Iranian agents we need to find out what they're doing in Iraq after a few water boarding treatments and sleep deprivation.

One of my friends is a millionaire many times over; he cannot read.
One of my relatives is a millionaire many times over; he did not go to high school.

I look less for spelling (could easily be a typo by a two-finger plucker like me) than I do look for an idea conveyed.

The feelings of War / Antiwar in this country are similar to feelings over Israel and Arabs. Keep your collars cool when discussing any; or the discussion is a waste of name calling.

Israel pulled off a long range raid at Entebbe; Jimmy Carter tried it in the Desert to get hostages out from Iran and killed 8 of our own instead.

I agree that Israel has the means, motive, desire, and ability to take care of whoever threatens their existence. There is a school of thought toward Divine protection, but not in this forum. I also believe they get weapons from parties other than the USA to make sure of their security. We blab too much.

When we had CIA hearings in the open in the 70's and promised not to assassinate world leaders, we made a laughingstock of our country to the world.

After Israel was established ( a kinda guilt relief for the planet after the Holocaust), there was a Mid East simmering, not war.

1967 saw a whopper of pants spanking by the Israelis and a huge land grab ostensibly to protect their, then, border.

A few years later, OPEC trumped us by taking oil price from $3 to $12 a barrel. That gave Carter an economy he was incapable of handling; inflation and stagnation.

Reagan bankrupted the Soviet Union by the Star Wars bluff and damn near took us down too. They blinked first. We are economically in the precise same position vis a vis the Chinese today and I think the blink will be our turn this time.

What has been missing over the years is that $3 oil going to $12 has steadily wiped us out as it climbs toward $80. Even inflation adjustment would put it closer to $30 or $35 a barrel.

While we dealt with the economic menace by making it worse over the decades, Israeli's have tightened their fence and interwoven a fabric in society where everyone is involved with civic protection of the nation.

By contrast, we have become economically bankrupt, morally deflated, civicly blind, bloated, and big-mouthed to the world and one another (like a mini-Fray board).

In all of these times, we always find out after-the-fact that our intelligence is not intelligence.

After 9/11, we had our left hand and right hand (FBI and CIA) meet one another. Homeland Security is the first department that needs eliminated under the next administration. Intelligence is too vital now.

It is way past time that the Intelligence Department have it's own college with a variety of departments to train folks now for future needs. And, the Intelligence Department can be domestic and foreign in one. The old has to go.
Oversight needs to be to a committee in the Legislative (they got the purse by law). But a new committee there too. That should be a permanent committee with very tight admission standards not yet found in Congress. Given our form of government, I suspect there will always be an Intelligence blabbermouth from that end

Last, our educators need to make a minimum of 2 languages necessary to finish school. And, fluently...none of this
"justamente por esso a mi no me gusta las albondigas" crap ; then graduate.
(loosely, "that's exactly why I don't like the meatballs").

Teach stuff like "which wire do I cut here, amigo?"
Or, what's plutonium going for on the open market these days".

Ok. Not that strong, but enough to do more good than get a date in Madrid. I do not think we can wait til Jan 2009, but Nancy Pelosi says impeachment is not an option no matter what you bring to her table.

I wish we had Divine protection like Israel.

Dam that Divine protection.

If I could do it all over again, I'd be Israelli too.

I wish we were a sleeping giant. Slow to anger and powerful in his wrath. Unfortunately, we're an angry retarted child with a piniata bat. God help whoever gets in our way as all we can hear is the shouts of those around us on where to swing and who our enemies are. All of our elan among Europe has been squandered. A great deal of the world was envious of our country and now they fear our cowboy diplomacy coming to liberate a nation near them.

Our domestic "intelligence" community is a joke. How can we expect international agencies to be able to cooperate ? I agree that Homeland security was a mistake by the Bush administration and the Iraq war + rebuilding effort was a huge series of blunders to better serve republican "yes-men" lining their pockets with DoD contracts and 23 year old grads getting appointed to rebuild the Iraq stock market.

I could write a book, but the WRONG way to move forward is to keep maintaining these multiple torture centers. Prisons on foreign soil "outsourced" to foreign goverments but run by Americans are just shady. Shady in a manner that disgraces our nation.

Merc, you seem like an educated and well-meaning person. Our job isn't to defend this nation at any cost. We cannot remain the home of the free when we continue to use the cherished principles of the Constitution as toilet paper. If you can recall Jack Nicholson's character in a Few Good Men, you may see the comparison. He violated rules in our best interest. However, our job is to defend the weak and the powerless. We represent your average non-combatant American citizen. We wage war to avert disaster and defend our borders and this administration is failing miserably. We cannot lose sight of that goal by stooping to the level of Hezbollah or Al-Quaeida in Iraq.

Longterm inhumane torture centers only create international hatred. Now this bloke, his family, and his friends will have a reason to truly hate America. By interrorgating this fellow without charges indefinitely - we've removed one "potential terrorist" and created 5 new ones to avenge him.

I only have one vote. I only have one voice.

Anybody Else '08