Given that the use of Nazi/Zionist comparison and contrast is counter-productive, and it is counter-productive at many levels, is it appropriate to use a Nazi analogy in justifying things like the US invasion of Iraq or Israel's "military campaigns" against Arabs in general?

Whereas the use of Nazi analogies seems to promote certain Zionist/neocon arguments (killing Palestinians to prevent another Holocaust, killing Saddam Hussein because he's a "Hitler" etc.), why isn't it reasonable to adopt the Nazi analogy in describing rationally subjects like Israel's ethnocentric statehood?

Are Gazans today justified in hating Jews and can such hate be described as merely anti-Jewish?

If you can accept that Palestinians have been wronged by Jews, wouldn't the prolonged suffering of Palestinians naturally create an increasingly irrational hatred for Jews and can that hatred, justifiably or not under those circumstances, be compared to Nazi hatred of Jews?

What is your estimate of what percentage of Israel's supporters believe that Israel was created in response to the Holocaust or to prevent another Holocaust?

Can Israel prevent or does it precipitate another Holocaust in your opinion, and why?

If Israel serves Jewish interests internationally, in view of Israel's success and strength, should threatened ethnicities worldwide adopt, if they can, such a model for nationhood?

Would a zoo-like (and I don't mean that pejoratively, borrowing from Life of Pi) accomodation of ethnic communities world-wide create a better world, and would that world need the equivalent of a zoo-keeper?

Is God a failed zoo-keeper?

Ghassan,

There are so very few people who can understand the experience of being one of the world's 'Forgotten people'.

There is no adequate solution to the focused neglect that can be brought to bear on those people that the power elites of the west wish to ignore.

The western media has wished to ignore the indiginous Americans, the Indiginous Irish, and of course the Indiginous people of Africa.

All those peole were ignored almost to death, and when they could not be ignored out of existance then the 'problems' surrounding their stuborn insistance on being seen and heard was all explained away as intractible tribal/religious hatreds.

It is now some sixty years since the Palestinian people have become the focus of this rabid ignorance and as Jack Dallas points out, they stubbornly refuse to move to New York and open ethnic cafes as any really civilized people would.

The whole Nazi thing is just another way of ignoring our collective tendency to accept fascism when it's our own team doing all the marching and saluting and choosing of the music.

The Nazis were not an isolated instance of exceptional evil, they were the natural result of the German people's ignoring everything they were asked to ignore.

So far anyway too many Americans are ignoring everything they are asked to ignore, they just haven't been asked to ignore people in zoos yet.

It was a naive America that helped defeat the outbreak of German end-game ignorance, I keep wondering who's going to stop us?

Israel has plenty of Muslims: --living better than Muslims in Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Syria, etc. Israel has far higher % Muslims than USA, Poland, Italy, England.

Israel is probably a net-burden for Jews of the world. There are no "Jewish interests." it is a myth. Jews have a religion and like bagels. Some fear being murdered. The religiosity is fading, except among observant Orthodox, who themselves often waver.

Many of us feel that God has not kept "the covenant."

Perhaps Israel is God's test of mankind: destroy it and all perish as an unworthy species: as Noah told.

God is a failed everything. He's the George W. Bush of deities.

Israel's value to jews is as a refuge when they are outed for crimes in a host country. Where did the russian jews who rape drussia and escaped from Putin go? No extradition for wanted jewish criminals there. They are watching Madoff like a hawk over it.

Well... it 'could' be Stockholm Syndrome or... it could be Ponerology.... but I think it's a little like Chinese Boxes where you get two parties to destroy each other for profit and then move on to the next killling field.

It is a very simple thing rendered infinitely complex by interests who use the method for their own gain; enjoyment, whathaveyou...

Rooting it out can be difficult because it hides among the unknowing and accuses the healer of the same.... making a Halloween mirror.

The evidence is glaring for the forensic mind but the response is to plant false evidence upon another and milk it for profit wine. It is a game as old as time and the essence of the intelligent criminal mind.

All labels and postures are mere decoys in s shooting gallery where the instigator collects from both the predator and prey.

But there will come a day.

place in those early days (pre-Israel) as to what should be done with the Palestinians. Surely there were two distinct points of view. One that held the Palestinians should be preempted, that the establishment of the Jewish state was one of precariousness which left no room for accommodation, that any accommodation would be viewed as weakness and would invite disaster. This, of course, is the view that prevailed but I have to believe there were people who recognized the folly of that thinking, that the success of the Israeli experiment (and it was surely an experiment) depended on the success of the Palestinians, that their destinies were hopelessly intertwined, that it was in the Israelis best interest to see to it that the Palestinians succeeded. (this was my response to catnapping's earlier post)

This probably won't be very helpful, but this might be with regard to "the zoo".

Anyways, I think the context is important here, like asking the Palestinians, "Are you better off than you were 60 years ago?" I suppose it's a stupid question, the answer obviously being, "No." I guess the more apt question would have to be asking Jews, "Are you better off than you were 60 years ago?" That would have to be, "Yes." Then ask Israel if she's better off than she was 60 years ago, and see what she says.

It's pretty simple (it's not). Israel is nothing more nor less than the world's collective holocaust guilt writ large and codified in a nation, namely, Israel. And that Israel has for the last 60 years shamefully though brilliantly used that guilt toward their own agenda as a nation when it comes to her actions here, there and abroad is one of the worst kept secrets on the planet. (Munich, anyone?)

But your insight into these matters has always been and will always be much more grounded and well-founded than mine ever will be, so I'll defer to you.

But I would like to ask you a question. Those tunnels. Why not, instead of (or in addition to) smuggling in RPGs and rockets and guns and munitions and bombs, smuggle in food and water and medicine and blankets? I mean, seriously, if you can get 50 pounds of explosives down one of those holes, surely you can drag a bucket of wings, some lime jello and a couple tubes of Icy-Hot with you as well. It just doesn't make sense.

Oh well. We probably should've just put them all in South Florida. Would've saved a fortune on lobbying costs, not to mention the increased social security revenues. Live and learn, as I like to say.

But they're just about the lowest form of thought. Depends a bit on whether one is using them to explain an analysis or substitute for analysis.

Israel doesn't particularly resemble Nazi Germany. Its popularity as an analogy in precisely opposing directions should suggest just how strained such thinking is. People like Nazi Germany as an analogy in all sorts of situations for reasons that have nothing to do with its appropriateness, indeed, the opposite: it's a great way to not have to think too much about details.

Of course it is obvious that a discussion of Israel may ultimately make a discussion of Nazi Germany (as a historical fact, not analogy) pertinent. Is, oh, say political analysis developed enough that any discussion can be had, except through analogy? Somewhat, I think, at a higher level, or, at least, more focussed analogies.

To answer your questions:

1) Nazi analogy re invasion: probably (not certainly) dumb

2) "Whereas" question funny in lack of parallel without explication. Fine, though. To inspecific is main criticism, as above.

3) "Justified" odd choice. Hatred useful as expression of commitment, but not too important (that is, doesn't say much about Gazans and commitments ill-defined and not too useful)

4) Question about whether Palesinians wronged by Jews and emotional result same as above with somewhat weak categorization thrown in. I tend to admire people(s) who move past history. Everyone's interest in the region therefore annoying to me (if I cared!)

Seem to have lost answers to others in post (deleted to correct confusin missing bracket, and cut and paste: Fail!). Ah well, little lost.

...that Israel's current offensive is counter-productive in terms of terrorism and Palestinian attitudes toward Israel, I'd certainly agree. They're just starting in on another round of violence, terrorism, and dead civilians.

This is Israel's greatest flaw, IMO - their willingness to perpetuate these feuds ad infinitum without really making any effort to end them. They're not incapable - with Carter's help, for instance, they ended the feud with Egypt - but it's very, very hard for them. And for the Palestinians, obviously.

Given that the use of Nazi/Zionist comparison and contrast is counter-productive, and it is counter-productive at many levels, is it appropriate to use a Nazi analogy in justifying things like the US invasion of Iraq or Israel's "military campaigns" against Arabs in general?

Whereas the use of Nazi analogies seems to promote certain Zionist/neocon arguments (killing Palestinians to prevent another Holocaust, killing Saddam Hussein because he's a "Hitler" etc.), why isn't it reasonable to adopt the Nazi analogy in describing rationally subjects like Israel's ethnocentric statehood?

We have enough words and combinations of words to do the job if we just try .. we don't need it.

Are Gazans today justified in hating Jews and can such hate be described as merely anti-Jewish?

Yes and no. My dog doesn't hate my vet, though he does unspeakable "crimes" against him.

If you can accept that Palestinians have been wronged by Jews, wouldn't the prolonged suffering of Palestinians naturally create an increasingly irrational hatred for Jews and can that hatred, justifiably or not under those circumstances, be compared to Nazi hatred of Jews?

As hate is in the mix, above, but a minor component, so too we have here. Who hasn't wronged the Palestinians?

What is your estimate of what percentage of Israel's supporters believe that Israel was created in response to the Holocaust or to prevent another Holocaust?

Above my pay grade.

Can Israel prevent or does it precipitate another Holocaust in your opinion, and why?

ditto.

Would a zoo-like (and I don't mean that pejoratively, borrowing from Life of Pi) accomodation of ethnic communities world-wide create a better world, and would that world need the equivalent of a zoo-keeper?

I have reservations.

Is God a failed zoo-keeper

ba-dah-bing

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(sorry, not much to say)

1. I think it's fair to start comparing Israel's genocidal mission to Germany's. I don't think Israelis are nazis...but I do see them as members of a terrorist State, and for decades they've been committing war crimes with impunity.

2. Is hate justified...well, probably. It's certainly natural...but to hate Jews is stupid. Most Zionists are actually fundamentalist christians...hoping to bring their culture-hero back from the dead. Orthodox Judaism has not a goddamn thing to do with Zionism. Gazans are more than justified in hating the Israelis - in hating Israel and the United States (since Israel is killing and torturing with our money and our weaponry.)

3. I don't think Palestinians have been wronged by "Jews." I think they have been wronged by Israel and the USA.

4. I think some folks might support Zionism out of guilt...however ridiculous that might be, considering that Jews are not the only victims of genocide: e.g. e.g. e.g. and e.g. And my god...if we wanted to give the victims of Germany's holocaust their own country, then why not Germany? Why not France who helped the Germans, or Poland, or the Vatican...or the fucking USA? Anti-semitism was thriving here, as well. We supported Hitler for a very long time...and we did very little to help the Jews fleeing Europe.

5. Israel's got itself in quite a pickle...it's been murdering neighbors for decades...I have no idea how she can make ammends...but certainly, to continue murdering children of palestine will not help.

6. Israel as a model? For failure, sure. That experiment would make a great model for what not to do...

7. I don't believe in your god. I don't believe in some Lonely Dude who decided to write code for animated toys and such.

and all that.

just on the cosmic stuff front, we were writing about those same damn tunnels about 10 minutes apart (me, here).

As to your queries, I chose two.

If you can accept that Palestinians have been wronged by Jews, wouldn't the prolonged suffering of Palestinians naturally create an increasingly irrational hatred for Jews and can that hatred, justifiably or not under those circumstances, be compared to Nazi hatred of Jews?

When Palestinians start appearing to be rounding up Jews, we'll talk.

What is your estimate of what percentage of Israel's supporters believe that Israel was created in response to the Holocaust or to prevent another Holocaust?

That's a serious toss up question, now that I really think about it. Would that be in addition to "God-given" Bible Rights? Or instead of them?