If we aren't getting as many military volunteers as we want, or we aren't getting enough of the caliber of volunteer that we want, the painfully obvious solution is to hike military pay even more than we already have. If it gets to the point where the market rate for some able-bodied intelligent young man to volunteer to go off and fight in Iraq is $250,000 per year, so be it.

At least that way all tax payers are sharing in the cost of the war, rather than hiding the cost by shifting it unwillingly onto young people. A draft is simply a way for those who support a war to force others to fight in it, without paying the free market rate for that service. In this country, if you want someone to do some work for you, you pay him what he requires to do it voluntarily, you don't pick a price on a whim and then throw him in jail if he doesn't agree to do the work at that rate.

Of course, paying soldiers what they're actually worth will be a lot more expensive than a draft. Market-priced labor can never compete with slave labor when it comes to cost. But it's the only moral option.

If you hike average pay for a soldier from $50,000 per person to $250,000 per person, that's going to cost the country $20 billion more, per year, for a force of 100,000 troops. That's a lot of money, but considering the war has already burned through $450 billion, it's certainly within our price range. Care to wager whether a quarter of a million dollars per year is enough to get excellent quality young people to line up to volunteer to go to Iraq?

It's just a question of whether Americans will tolerate the tax hikes needed to pay soldiers what the market demands for those services. If not, then clearly the war is not much of a national priority, and if it's not much of a national priority, we sure shouldn't be forcing people who may not even support the war to go over and kill and die in that cause.

Average pay of $50,000? How many military people do you know that make that? I have been in 8 years and barely clear $30,000 a year before taxes. Plus I guarantee that no one would want to pay the taxes that a massive pay raise would incur. I don't know if I support a draft or not, half the people I know in the volunteer force don't even want to be there (myself included) and the USAF at least is kicking people out left and right. I think service to one's country is important though,and it would be nice for all the people on the outside who look down on it to get to know what it takes to serve. It is far from slave labor and it isn't the abyss of the poor, uneducated masses that many on these boards like to think of it as.

I picked a fairly high average income figure based on the idea that I was "fully loading" the salary with the indirect contributions (e.g., the retirement income and retirement health benefits you're accruing, the pro-rated recruitment and re-up bonuses, etc.), along with hazard pay, since we're talking about people being sent to Iraq. Maybe $50k is still too high. I don't know.

But the exact numbers are immaterial to the argument. The point is simply that you will get a whole lot more volunteers if you pay a whole lot more money. So, before we return to a policy of impressment, why not just hike pay to what the market demands? If the war is worth fighting, isn't it worth paying people what they require to volunteer for it? That will spread the cost of the war more fairly to the ages and social classes that have the real political power in this country, rather than forcing the lion's share of that cost on draft-eligible young people.

You say that "it is far from slave labor." Well, when I referred to slave labor, I was referring specifically to the draft -- conscription is the act of threatening someone with jail if he doesn't perform whatever job the mob wants done for whatever pay the mob feels like providing. That strikes me as slavery. Voluntary military service is another matter entirely. That involves the society offering whatever amount the labor market demands for the job they want done.

is what paying a soldier $250,000/year to go fight in Iraq reminds me of: dangerous work for high pay. High risk, high reward. The rich would still not have to fight, but at least the working class might get ahead. Don't the mercenaries already get high pay over there?

What I'm peeved about is that not only are the rich and affluent not fighting in this war, they're not even paying for this war; George Bush gave them two big tax cuts. Adds insult to injury.

As a practical matter, even with a draft few of the rich would actually fight -- sure, an occasional young man from a wealthy family might be drafted, but they'd be far better able to get whatever deferments are necessary, or to come up with a way to game the medical tests, or simply to leave the country and set up a new life elsewhere. And, even if they are drafted, they'll be better able to pull strings and avoid combat duty -- they won't be the foot soldiers toting guns into hell, that'll be left to the working class. Besides, the really rich individuals are pretty much all older people, who won't be drafted at all. So, we may as well dispense with the idea we can realistically hoping to spread the burden of the war to the upper class by way of a draft. Instead, we should pay the "blood money," if we, as a society, think the war is worth fighting.

That way the economic burden falls disproportionately on the kinds of wealthy people who dictate policy in the first place -- and, as you point out, the working class has a chance to get ahead. I find it sick that rather than paying the market rate for this dangerous labor, we're instead talking about drafting people, so that the upper class can force the lower class to fight their war on the cheap.

Jen13, First and foremost, I am all in favor of a pay increase for the military. I like the idea of $250k. But….

I think his average is actually a bit low. Often times many of us in the military do not accurately calculate our income.

For example. Lets take your average married E-5 with 8yr experience. Lets call him/her the average soldier (I am Army so please forgive me all you airman, sailors, and marines)

Now lets calculate his salary based on 3 different duty locations. 1) Wash, DC, 2) Ft. Hood, TX 3) Ft. Drum, NY; (Based on 2006 figures)

All pay calculated yearly

Basic Pay: $28,824.00

Allowances (Tax Free):

Subsistence: $3267

Clothing Allowance: $511

Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH): DC – $21,468; Hood – $11,064, Drum – $11,592

(Note on Housing: Soldiers only receive BAH if they are not assigned quarters on base. But those assigned housing on base get housing comparable to housing off base in the same price range (actually calculated on sqft). Additionally on post housing includes all utilities at no additional cost to the soldier)

Now lets look at included benefits:

Health insurance: $3,000 (free to the soldier and his/her family, AVG American pays this much for insurance for the family)

Commissary Privileges: $1,607. The AVG American spends $5,357yr on groceries. The AVG commissary customer saves 30%. 30% of 5357 = 1,607

Paid Vacation: 1) DC $2,677; 2) Hood $2,119; 3) Drum $2,148. The AVG American gets 13 paid vacation days a year. The military gets 30 days a year. This paid vacation includes payment for Basic Pay, BAH and Subsistence. 17 addition vacation days X daily pay = Extra Paid Vacation value

Tax Free Pay: 1) DC $2,677; 2) Hood $2,120 3) $2,148. Since a fair portion of the military pay is tax free, we must assess this benefit. Subsistence, BAH and Clothing Allowances are Tax Free. Normally these would be taxed at a rate of $755 plus 15% of all amounts over $7,550.

So now lets add all these numbers up by duty location (rounded to the nearest $)

Total Compensation

Wash, DC – $64,763

Ft. Hood, TX – 52,242

Ft. Drum, NY – $52,878

Now this does not include other benefits which certainly have a real world $$ amount attached to them such as:

1) No Sales tax for items purchased on post

2) Military Discounts offered by many retail businesses

3) Space Available Air flights: For less then $20 my family and I can fly from Wash, DC to Europe (or the any other place US military aircraft fly).

4) Free Gym access: AVG cost to join a civilian gym is $50/mo. Plus most military installation have 1st class gyms. Normally several.

5) Most importantly Guaranteed Pension upon 20yrs of service (immediately available upon retirement; approx. 50% of base pay of the highest rank achieved; plus 2.5% for every year over 20yrs service) (assume you retire after 20 year at the rank of E-8 pay would equal $34,302/yr). Imagine retiring at the age of 38 with a retirement pay higher than teacher's pay in 13 states. Show me a civilian job with a pension as nice as that!

6) Upon retirement FREE medical care for life!!!!! Try getting that some where else!

You are mistaken on the "free medical care for life". It's only free while you are on active duty. Once you retire, it costs approximately $540 a year for TRICARE for you and your family. It is still far cheaper than the "civilian world" pays for health insurance, but it certainly isn't free.

I won't complain about military compensation, although it took many years and pay grade advancements before I actually began to make enough money to have a family with. E-1 through E-4 is sucking hind tit, and I'm amazed at those members that try to have a family on such wages. As an E-5 stationed in San Diego, I had 3 active duty room mates in a 3 bedroom apartment. In '98, our rent for that shithole without A/C was 1200 a month. My current salary combined with my wife's provides us with a comfortable living. The biggest stressor is not knowing where we are going to be physically located every 3-4 years. It's hard to put down roots and hard for her to establish a career.

Military compensation isn't bad, for the higher ranks...but our juniors can barely eak out a living. I'm an E-7 with 18 years next month. I only joined for 4 years, guess how surprised I am now.

Yes, there are some nice benes included in military service. I am very happy to shop at the commissary, even though they are often out of certain items and the produces sucks. It is by far the cheapest place to buy food for my family. I do however want to note that your figures for housing, at least in the DC area, are inaccurate in my experience. I was stationed in the Baltimore-DC area for 5+ years. My BAH averaged around $1,000 before kids and around $1300 after. It didn't go up for three years and in fact, the last year I was stationed there it was reduced. The average rent for a 3 bedroom townhome in my area was between $1500-$2000. To buy a home I would have had to shell out no less than $300,000, impossible on my housing allowance. I lived on base for a significant period of time because of this. The two homes I had on base were both less that a thousand sq feet (including the 3 bedroom one we had), were infested with ants and had mice problem. The last house I lived in the bathtub leaked through the kitchen ceiling --a kitchen that mind you had no pantry or cabinet drawers. My washer and dryer were also in the kitchen. I promise you that is not comparable to housing off base. Oh, and I paid my full BAH to live there 'cause it was "privatized", and would have had to pay out of pocket utilities within the next 5 years if I had stayed. We moved out when we found a 4 bedroom townhome that was a steal at $1650; the units on either side of us rented for $2200 a month.

I also can't help but laugh when people talk about our free health care. Yes, I don't pay for it, but I have to make routine appointments months in advance and better hope if I get the flu that I can get through on the sick call line before 7 am or I am SOL on getting quarters. Earlier this year my PCM thought I had fractured a vertebrae and ordered an X-ray; it took a week to get in and have them done. The X-rays showed possible damage so they ordered a CT scan; that time it took two weeks to get in. Three weeks with a possible fracture in my spine--but I didn't have to pay!

The no sales tax is misleading as well, you still have to pay a tax that goes towards upkeep and things on the stores. I forget what it is called but if you check your receipts it is right at the bottom and comparable to sales tax.

And government subsidized daycare? $1000 a month for 2 kids. I pay for days they aren't there, I pay for holidays and base down-days. My husband and I want one more child and I will have to get out when we do because my entire paycheck will be paying for the daycare, and I see no point in working simply so I can pay for someone to watch my kids so I can work.

Maybe it is better in the Army, but I doubt it since the lovely base housing I lived in was on Ft Meade.

In today’s military it is impossible to be stationed in the DC area for less then $40k. E-2 Pay is $1,458. BAH is $1,657, Subsistence is $279.88. Disregarding that most (59.8%) of that pay is tax free (ie worth about 15% extra) and the free health care, yearly clothing allowance etc…. This salary still comes up to over $40k year. (Assuming one did not get demoted, it is nearly impossible to be stationed in DC as an E-1)

Pay Charts

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Official BAH Rates

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Enter Duty Position of 22202 (Arlington)

This, incidentally, is about 25% higher compensation then what the open market pays for someone with similar qualifications. Hell, jobs that require 2yrs of college only pay $30k/yr

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Oh and by the way, the above listed job doesn’t include free child care either

If you were lower enlisted you probably did not have a college degree. People in the DC area without college degree generally do not get to buy homes within the beltway.

Furthermore, even with the extreme run up of housing cost in DC since you were stationed here, you can still find a nice townhouse within commuting range of the Pentagon. For example Woodbridge or Lorton, VA. A townhouse will cost you only about 1000/mo and single family homes can be rented for less then 1500.

So while swanky Crystal City or Roslyn condos may be priced out of the price range of lower enlisted (and many advanced degreed young professional), affordable housing can CERTAINLY be rented for much less then the BAH. And if Woodbridge and Lorton or good enough for senior commissioned officers, certainly it you cannot protest to loud.

You can’t expect the military (or anyone else) to compensate a HS graduate the same that the open market pays an advanced degreed professional. A dare say to you that a young working mother with only a HS diploma is compensated SIGNIFICANTLY lower then a young enlisted airman.

PS. Looking down at my PX receipt. No taxes sweetheart. Pack of T-shirts cost $13.05, total bill $13.05.

Perhaps if you had noted where I was stationed, Ft Meade, you would have realized that the 2005 BAH (when I moved off base) was $1208, and when I moved to the area I had a BAH rate of $733. When I moved off base it was to Odenton, MD, yep super swank town there. Still paid $1650 in rent. You cannot live in the ghetto in that area of MD for $1000 a month. While I don't happen to have a commissary receipt on hand, there is a surcharge.

Oh, not that it matters, but I came into the military with a degree. So did my husband. But we wanted to be linguists, so enlisted we went. Lower enlisted does not equal stupid, thanks anyway.

Yea that only strengthens my position. Ft. Meade and the commutable area around that post are considerably cheaper then the DC area.

Since 2002, Anne Arundel County has seen an appreciation of over 20% in housing prices. And even considering all that you can still find affordable housing well priced under the current BAH rates.

Rental Links for Odenton

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Lastly, before I go. There is absolutely no way that your statement, "I have been in 8 years and barely clear $30,000 a year before taxes." It is an utter and complete lie. I agree that lower enlisted does not equal stupid, in your case it clear equals equivocator.

If, as you claim, you had a degree upon entering the military, you should have entered no lower then an E-3. After 8 years, you should have at a minimum, assuming you have the least bit of pulse, made E-5 (the average AF Airmen takes 6.9yrs to attain E-5 and that is without the head started granted to those with degrees). And the compensation for an E-5 in 2005, clearly shown by DOD documents, was well above $30k.

In fact I will spell it out for you.

Base Pay: $26,460

Allowances (BAH and Subsistence): $19,716

This adds up to $46,176, which incidentally equals a 53.9% higher salary then what you claimed. And a 54% "miscalculation" shifts your statement out of the realm of exaggeration to the realm of deceit.

Official 2005 Pay Charts

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Official BAH Calculator (Ft. Meade is zip 20775)

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PS. $46,176 is more then the starting salary for the Assistant State's Attorney for the state of Maryland (Anne Arundel County).

Just as a side note, I used to live on Ft. Meade, too. My father was a military intelligence liaison who worked with the NSA. It's a nice base.

Here is picture of the new on-port housing at Ft. Meade.

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Now granted, Jen and Family were propably sationed her prior to the new construction. But it is hard to complain about military housing when new construction such as this is taking place all over military installations. But for those who dont know here are a few examples of new military housing for military post around the DC area.

Quintico:

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Ft. Belvior :

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Bolling AFB:

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But just to assure people it is not just in the DC area, here are other military insitallations

Ft. hood, TC

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Ft. Leonard Wood, MO

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Ugh. I have no interest in arguing back and forth on how much money I bring home or not. I'm the one who knows how hard it is to make ends meet. But if you are going to look up Ft Meade, use the correct zip, 20755 not 20775.

Yes the new housing looks nice. It is also built like crap. Half of the enlisted housing in the first neighborhood that went up was built over an old landfill and began to have toxic gas leaks, rendering the entire section of brand-new housing unusable. Enlisted folks were supposed to be the first to move in, but officers didn't take kindly to that and complained loudly enough that now officers are living in new enlisted housing. There is no trash pick up for the new enlisted houing because they claim the streets aren't wide enough for the trash trucks (streets that were built specifically for these neighborhoods). So the families get to cart their trash a few streets over to the Dumpsters which are supposed to compact the trash, but are broken more often than not. Kids are too short to lift the lids on them, so trash piles up, blows around, and stinks up the place. Officer housing has trash and recycling pick-up.

A friend of mine was lucky enough to get moved into some of the new housing (it is a 5-10 year wait list to get in them you see, and you have to have lived in the old housing first) because her old housing had toxic mold. Well they decided to move a Col into an (enlisted) unit two townhomes down from her. Now she is not allowed to drink alcohol (beer, wine, whatever) in her yard or let her kids outside after 9pm because it might disturb him. The entire street had the occupancy rules changed because an officer couldn't handle having to stay in old houing until his new subdivision could be built. The member's full BAH is taken for the rent, but they are going be charged utilities within the next 5 years I believe. Those will be out of pocket. You cannot have a fence. The garages in the units built in the late 90's are unusable because the flooring is unstable in the bathrooms above them and there is a fear that the bathtub will fall through into the garage. Siding falls off in strong winds. I could go on and on. It had gotten so bad that the year I PCS'd the IG was building a case against RCI, the company running the privitazation. Quality of life is a serious issue in the military, no matter how many of the "bonuses" you try and factor in.

I suppose I should add that I don't regret enlisting. I DO regret re-enlisting, but I still, after all of the crap the USAF has served up, think it was a good decision the first time. I learned a lot about myself, learned an interesting language, had a killer intel job, and met my husband thanks to that first enlistment. As far as the whole original point of this thread, some sort of service, whether as a military member or in civil service, would probably do a lot of people a lot of good. It works in other countries, and it might help curb the pervasive selfishness and greed of this one. Imagine people having to do something for the greater good, people's heads would explode at the shock.