in the coming decades, conservatives will derive a great deal of amusement watching libs trying to force their agenda on non western people. It is not precisely the kind of enjoyment we want, but you can't have everything. You see, libs, there is a difference between let's distribute the income liberalism (everyone wants to have something distributed to him) and the abominable trifecta of homosexuality, abortion, atheism. As the US becomes more diverse, this will become more and more of an issue because I don't see the non western world going for this. We weak westerners let the libs capture our children, but it looks like some people are going to put up a resistance.Heather has two mommies, we were forced to swallow it. Fatima or Rashida has two mommies - I don't think so.

a few decades from now gays may have to leave the state. gays are welcome to come over to the conservative side or whatever is left of the west in america. We won't let you get married, but we won't hurt you either.

You make a fine point that some socially conservative societies are unwilling to accept certain socially liberal ideals, but your distinction of West versus the rest is rather spurious. For example, in decidedly Eastern societies like China, or the slightly more "Western" Japan, atheism is pretty normal. Plus China is more populous than other nations, so if we're factoring in the whole world, you have to give an added weight to their 59% who claim to be non religious.

Here is a quick reference for you. <link>

Abortion, also, is not limited to the liberal west. It is quite common in Japan, where some people politely refer to it as "the operation."

Here is some reading for you. <link> and <link>

I'm no expert here, but I have it on hearsay that it is also common in China to abort or kill female children after birth due to the strict one child laws and the desire to have sons.

Here is an article that 10 seconds with google produced. <link>

Also, some middle eastern societies have a long history of institutionalized gender roles that many westerners would consider homosexuality. For example, India and Pakistan's Hijra.

Here's another link for you: <link>

Note that Pakistan is a largely Islamic nation. Also note that some Hijra marry, according to the article (although they do so without state recognition).

My point here is not that the east is more accepting of homosexuality, atheism or abortion than the west, nor that non western societies are necesarily in favor of these things, but rather that your assumption that people with names like Fatima or Rashida are inherently less willing to tolerate homosexuality or same sex marriage is not exactly true. Moreover your characterization of non-western societies as religiously driven is an absolute fallacy. Beyond that, the US definition of social conservatism is not 100% congruent with that of other socially conservative societies. Finally, it is easy to find a counterexample for your claim that US social conservatives are more accepting, and less likely to hurt homosexuals, in the case of Matthew Sheppard.

So, please, before you start presenting broad generalizations as absolute facts, do us all a favor, and take the time to at least do some basic research to see if your claim has a leg to stand on. Research is easy in this day and age. Information on the internet isn't 100% accurate, but since you're posting on it, I assume you know how to use it. Please at least make an attempt to.

I mean, that was, after all the point of his post - he is so parochial that he doesn't understand that this is a global issue that the whole world deals with and that the whole world is changing every day.

And btw, you left out Africa......

Dear GiantSwan,

They can do what every they want, as long as it does not effect my family or religion, and that is what 8 was about.

And that is what is going on now, the protest are against religion, and the liberal wants to destroy our religion, so they can control us.

God has given us freedom of choice, and the liberals hate this, and they know if they can take away God, then they have a chance at taking away our freedoms.

God Bless You

Yeah, I left out Africa, because I know next to nothing about African sexual mores. For the sake of expedience, it was simpler for me to use Asian countries as counter examples.

Bigot or not, he's entitled to his opinion, much as I disagree with it. So it seems like the only way to open up any sort of discussion on this idea is to address the intellectual underpinning of people's opinions. Part of the strength of the anti gay ideology lies in the belief that it is a natural and universally held ideology. I was adressing his argument that western liberals are the exception to a universal rule.

More than that, regardles of a person's opinion, I expect them to be factual if their defense of it. If you cant find facts to support it, then you have no business having the opinion, or you can only phrase the opinion in terms of "I personally believe."

Go away troll

Until you can coherently explain how someone elses right to marry affects your family or religion you will be considered to be as ignorant as you continuously demostrate yourself as being.

There is a movement afoot to secularize the Untied States of America. Will it affect you or your family? Youbetcha!, but not in the ways you think. You won't lose your freedom to worship anyway you want, but you will find out - especially your children will - that there is a way to live that is even more free, that is not bound by rules that only your mysterious god understands (the one that stopped talking to you a millennium ago)..

You can't stop this secularization of America anymore than the Europeans could. It has nothing to do with laws and protests so just supressing this movement will not stop it - it is stronger than the Christian movement in the first and second century AD.

America was never a Christian Nation - that was a perversion of the original intent of the Constitution and now things are turning around. Don't worry that your religion will ever be denied you. It is just going to seem a lot less important.

Trebuchet - don't bother with Mark_RSM, he's a long running troll.

If you want to roll in the mud with him, remember the adage about pigs