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Retail can be cheap
by Adamatari

But only if there is lots of competion and a lack of a powerful wholesale market.

One of things we tend to ignore when talking about our screwed up system of health insurance (and the lack thereof) in the US is the effect that wholesale insurance has had on the retail market. Consider if medicare, medicaid and company programs were all to dissapear tomorrow. Would you see a vast swelling of the ranks of the uninsured? I doubt it, simply because without the wholesale markets insurers would have to compete for people on an individual basis. All those middle and even lower middle class people now covered by some form of company or government insurance would probably still end up insured. I wouldn't be suprised if health insurance became cheaper in this case, as no longer would there be the phenomenon of people in various jobs getting the "wholesale" price through their employer and other people paying a much higher "retail" price. On the other hand, the poor and those with existing conditions would still be SOL.

Now imagine if there was no insurance. Everyone has to pay their doctors directly. I think in many, many situations, things would be much cheaper. Drug companies would lower to price in order to be able to sell the drugs. Doctors would make visits cheap enough that average people could pay. On the other hand, this would create a system where the best doctors would charge more, and the poor might recieve more medical care but of lower quality. Of course, in reality this would lead to the recreation of insurance companies, but anyway...

The problem in the US is that we've managed to create the worst of all worlds in a way (well, not really, because if you have money you can get great care in the US). We've created a mix of wholesale and retail where the wholesale market is the larger one, and therefore retail is much, much more expensive. We've also created a system where costs are hidden from most consumers, so the costs of drugs and treatments are inflated since they are paid by insurance.

In a system of government health care, there are other issues. Everyone still pays, they just pay with taxes. Every citizen is covered, but nocitizens and such may suffer for it. It's been argued that the incentive to create expensive new treatments goes down.

Ultimately I think the US will go onto a system of government run health insurance/health care, but there will be issues with this. There is no perfect health care system, and there's no free lunch either. When we discuss this, we should acknowledge that the free market does have distinct advantages, and we don't have a free market in any real sense - medicare/medicaid is a huge government insurance program. Basically we'll all be going on medicare/medicaid if we go to government insurance. Who says the government won't screw over some people as well? That said, our current system is very seriously flawed and needs to change in some way.

Imagine . . .
by run75441

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Sure and all of those companies will do this for free! Don't be stupid.

Re: Retail can be cheap
by mbrant

There ARE retail doc-shops, and they ARE substantially cheaper. They don't accept insurance, nor credit cards. However, their services are fairly minimal (outpatient minor surgery, minimal labwork, etc), and their hours are usually limited. It meets most of the needs of most of the people, most of the time. However, they only work on a cash-only basis. Accept credit or insurance, and the whole concept disintegrates.

In all other ways, I agree with your every word.

Re: Retail can be cheap
by KenZ

Adamatari is confusing 2 markets: the health care provider market (hospitals, doctors to patients) and the health insurance market to consumers.

The provider market can work to lower prices but there is a fundamental inequality of information in the market. Buyers have no idea about the relative quality of what they are buying.

The health insurance market is different, and the assertion that if Medicare disappeared that there would be no more uninsured people is laughable on its face. Every attempt to "privatize" this market has failed because the private insurers can't make money. I don't expect many companies trying to sell to my diabetic, 90 year old grandma, or the cost would be about $20K a year.

A pure free market without insurers pushes the US closer to countries like Mexico. The problem is that it fails to address the externalities caused by a declining health in the populous. The effect on the US GDP would eventually be devastating because fewer people would seek care and capital would retreat from the healthcare industry (if only a few thousand people can afford a pacemaker, who's going to produce them?).

Countries with more comprehensive insurance do better. I do not mean England and truly socialized medicine. I mean France and Germany which has compulsory insurance but market provision of services. Overall prices are lower, and satisfaction is higher.

Who do we want to be like an advanced, industrialized country (France) or like a developing country (Mexico)? Apparently, Rudy wants us to work our way down market.


Cheap for whom?
by differnetEllen

What will you do for the poor? I guess like Scrooge suggested they will simply die. Because how cheap can it be if you can't afford food and shelter?

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