Gen. wesley Clark was correct when he said getting shot down does not qualify Sen. McCain for pres. In fact McCain was shot down 3 times because of his wreckless, suicidal tactics. He is an extremely lucky, wreckless and erratic man as he demonstrated then and more recently.

Yes, ladies and gentlemen No Spin is a typical democrat circa 2008. Mocking a brave man's military service. Sounds like a unifier to me.

Senator McCain lost five planes. One was shot down, one was destroyed on the deck of the USS Forrestal. Neither of those were his fault. He crashed three additional planes, at least one of which because he was just goofing off.

People get thrown out of the Navy for far less; even officers. I've watched it happen.

No one is taking away the honor of his military service. But, let's be real- being shot down and being a POW does not qualify as experience in the realm of being President. The man simply does NOT exercise sound judgement. He has demonstrated this numerous times.

Interestingly Mr.quillsinister, when it comes to professional conduct, there has always been a double standard between the air side of the house and the combat arms or surface side in your case. What's one to do? : - )

However, I thought you might be interested in this guy. It's why we grudgingly love them. He killed himself trying to jump a canal with his motor cycle down in Pensacola, probably half in the bag. But at least being a good Marine, did it in mess dress, having just left a formal affair! : - |

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Dear wthll,

Mr McCain has shown much sounder judgement as a older man, Mr Obama is to young and inexperienced to be president.

This is not the time or place to have a leader like Mr Obama, and Mr Biden is correct when he says he will be tested, and it is not going to be good for any of us.

Mr McCain was right on the Iraq war, and on Freddy/Fannie, while Mr Obama was taking in donations, Mr McCain has worked his whole life to get to this point.

Someday Mr Obama may have the skills and judgement to be president, but it is not this day.

God Bless You

Don't answer Mark_RSM, wthll! He's really John McCain posting anonymously. Sadly, I've had to educate him about his own adulterous affair, his own illegal activities with Keating, his own dalliance with "agents of intolerance" and more. He must be getting senile.

Franly McCain is an unrepentant participant in war crimes. He helped kill 2 million Vietnamese and unlike John Kerry never figured out that it was wrong. And he helped do it again in Iraq.

RSM = Really Senator McCain? ;-)

That's one way to go in style. And 780 combat missions? Wow. That's a lot of bloody combat missions.

I knew a guy from my last deployment who went on to head up a mobile security det out of Guam. On one of his trips out, they were providing security on an oil platform in the Gulf. On his last day there, he let his guys (MAs, mostly) dare him into jumping off into the ocean. It was so far down that he shattered a few vertebrae hitting the water and was kicked out pretty much right after being discharged from the hospital. I don't think he lasted long enough to make LT. But we found out later that he was sleeping with one of his (married) enlisted women while on the ship, so none of us were at all surprised when we heard the manner of his departure from naval service.

Also, my last job was navigator on a destroyer. When a ship grounds, the dayshape is three black balls flown on a halyard to let other ships know your predicament. The joke is that they represent the careers of the CO, navigator and OOD hung in effigy. That's just the culture I was raised in here. You fuck up, you go home. I can't even imagine getting away with something like Senator McCain's business in Spain. :-O

Salut Mr. quillsinister. Yes indeed, having grave reponsibility and command has its rewards. But so too does it demand nothing less then exacting professionalism and those that transgress are sent packing. Even on liberty, bearing should always be displayed - it's a leadership trait.

Did you know MajGen Smedly Butler more then likely would have had "three" MOH by today's standards? During the Boxer Rebellion, he displayed great valor and leadership. In his early days, nothing less was expected of a Naval officer and they weren't awarded that decoration. He was instead. breveted and advanced several lineal numbers in grade, and "mentioned in displatches."

"And St. David.”
—During the Boxer Rebellion, the Marines were brigaded with the Royal Welch Fusiliers (23d Regiment of Foot). Since then on St. David’s Day (1 March), the CMC and Colonel of Fusiliers exchange by dispatch the traditional watchword of Wales.

P.S. What's this Seapower 21 document and vision? Who "didn't" think very foward in writing this?

Yiasas, Tyrtaios.

"Did you know MajGen Smedly Butler more then likely would have had "three" MOH by today's standards?"

Seems to me I read that somewhere, probably in the introduction to my edition of War is a Racket.

"P.S. What's this Seapower 21 document and vision? Who "didn't" think very foward in writing this?"

Sigh... Every few years, someone with many stars on their collar decides that what the Navy lacks is a grand strategic vision. It inevitably reads like someone's MBA thesis set to the dulcet tones of the Annapolis Glee Club, and I have yet to see anything tangible come from any of it, with the exception of giving young ensigns a lot more trivia to memorize before they go up for their warfare pin. If memory serves, the last one was called Forward... From the Sea. It is essential that you include the ellipsis for dramatic effect. Otherwise, you might not know where you were advancing from. ;-)

So, yeah, I guess Sea Power 21 defines how we'd like to operate in an ideal world. It is obviously the best thing ever and will solve all of our problems. I think it mostly just gives admirals something to talk about when they're begging Congress for money. I suppose it is as good a global strategic vision as one could reasonably fit into so few pages. Maybe I'm just not in a position to fully appreciate it, and would really like someone to start wondering about other things; like how we're going to keep deploying warships to the Gulf at a cost of 4,000,000 gallons or so of F-76 per ship after the effects of peak oil start to be felt. As fun as it is to drive a ship with gas turbine engines, they suck fuel like there's no tomorrow. Or why we're spending so much money on the LCS when we manufacture the Saar 5 for Israel, and it is as sweet a platform for a knife fight close to shore as anyone has come up with.

Don't mind me. I'm the elephant's child of line officers. It's my cross to bear. :-)

Tyro, you at least for sure should be able to recognize the cultural shift in the military since you served. What was once acceptable during your service is unacceptable nowadays, during the time of Quill. Quill hasn't seen the military in any other way and how much it has changed just since Tailhook. So yes, McCain may have crashed three planes...but we were crashing a lot of planes during his training days.

In my own experience, the first aviator I saw lose his career was during the det fly-off of our first detachment coming home from Gulf War 1. Two HH-46D's were flying tight formation overlapping rotor arcs, looking real shnazzy. The trail bird dipped through the rotor arc of the lead and they contacted rotor blades. Both aircraft landed safely and the 25 lives that were in both of them were unharmed, but that pilot lost his wings and his career. Another one got a DUI during this same tour in Phrogs, and joined the Army so he could continue flying helicopters.

Boorda went UA during his first few years....and rose to become the CNO. Several of our more famous admirals have had errors in navigation, such as bottoms of ships contacting terra firma, that was Nimitz. Imagine if we would have discharged him for such an error in judgement and ability. Unacceptable these days.

It's a different military...public perception is important to the leadership, so yes...it doesn't take quite as much to ruin your career these days as it did back in yours. Hell...they even gave recruits 'stress cards" in boot camp about 10 years ago....in case boot camp was a little too stressful...they could "play" their card and get a break from the trauma.

True, and you kind of hoisted me on my own petard there (touche), since I've complained myself about the culture of firing people for such trivial things. Case in point being a friend's former CO, who took over a ship that hadn't seen an INSURV in seven years, left for OIF about a week after he took command, and had an INSURV exactly a week after that ship's return to port. The ship failed the inspection and the CO was fired basically for not finding time to fix seven years of neglect while deployed to a war zone when actual hostilities were going on. That I disagree with, and I think we've chopped off the heads of several talented people for similar nonreasons.

Still, there are limits. I traded paint with a buoy in Thimble Shoals Channel once when a merchant ship was coming through in the opposite direction. That's fine. I've even heard of people kissing the sandbar on the way into Bahrain. Easy to do, that's a nasty S&A detail for the NAV. But an actual collision or running hard aground would make me a civilian in a big hurry, and I couldn't really blame them if it happened.

I still can't believe the stress card thing. Do they still do that? We didn't have them at OCS. I don't think the Marine DI's would have stood for it. :-)

Just to clarify, the only truly blameworthy crash I think Senator McCain had was the one in Spain. And that really had no bearing on my opinion of him as a presidential candidate.

Dear Quillsinister,

No some people just want to censor you because they are unable to prove you wrong, and she is not the only one that does such things.

I will post and provide the facts, the truth will set you free.

God Bless You