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Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by shells

Thank you for the article.

We should not be too quick to say, "I have a right...". The decisions we make affect others - we do not make decisions in a vacuum. What do we say to the father who wants his child to have life, to have the chance to love his child? He is, after all, half of the parents. Or the grandparents-to-be, or other family, who are affected by a decision to terminate a pregnancy?

What the author views as "paternalistic" restrictions can also be viewed as giving women a fuller and more accurate view of their situation. It is telling that she states the restrictions "might force you to think about the fetus as having a separate identity or as the baby it could become." Why is this a bad thing? Does she want the doctor to deliver only the information that conforms to her views on the matter? She also says overturning the law would be "sparing them from a procedure that women would reject as too gruesome if they only knew the details". We wouldn't withhold details for other medical procedures, so why for abortion procedures? My conclusion: because it supports the aims of those who promote abortion, not what is in the best interests of the mother.

Re: Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by ellewilson

Trust me, clinics that provide abortion provide a virtual onslaught of information to patients. I worked in a Planned Parenthood clinic for ten years. Every woman seeking an abortion had first to freely make an appointment over the telephone. When she arrived in the clinic waiting room, she was handed a packet of information and consent forms. Then, she had to undergo an ultrasound, and then, she had to talk briefly to a counselor. The purpose of the "counseling session" was not to intrude on her decision or pry into her personal life, but 1) to explain how the abortion procedure worked and what she could expect to feel during and after; and 2) to make sure that this really was her decision and she was choosing it freely and under no pressure from anyone else. Only then could she sign the consent forms and have the procedure. The "informed consent" process in my Planned Parenthood clinic went far beyond any informed consent that is required for other procedures, such as colonoscopies or root canals.

Remember, in the US, an abortion is a woman's constitutional right. That's the law of the land. There is no reason she should be required to jump through ultrasound-viewing hoops and listen to mandatory speeches on the reality of the fetus inside her. We are not children. If you don't want to have an abortion or don't believe in one, don't have one.

Re: Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by Terrils
shells:

Thank you for the article.

We should not be too quick to say, "I have a right...". The decisions we make affect others - we do not make decisions in a vacuum. What do we say to the father who wants his child to have life, to have the chance to love his child? He is, after all, half of the parents. Or the grandparents-to-be, or other family, who are affected by a decision to terminate a pregnancy?

And if the father is a rapist? Or has taken a hike because he doesn't want the responsibility? And the grandparents, for god's sake! Why do you suppose they should get a vote in something so wholly personal as what's being carried inside a woman's body? To resort to the old, but valid, comparison: the day the father/grandparents can carry the baby to term themselves is the day they get to vote on what the mother decides.

Re: Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by lucy123

I totally agree - I made another post about women being raped. Should they be put through this too? (Although I think if you are raped, they give you the morning after pill at the hospital?? Not sure, and I'm sure it's not 100% effective.)

When I got pregnant, I told the father - who later split. (Good thing I wasn't depending on him!) His parents were never told because he didn't want to look bad in his grandfathers eyes. Should I have had an abortion to keep him from being looked down upon? Or should I have had my child (I did) and care for him with the support of my family.

You can't let someone else make a decision for you that affects your entire life, your body and your future. I don't just think it's when someone else can carries the baby - maybe they can make the decision. I think it goes a bit further to when you are prepared to care for the child for 18 years, then you might get a say.

But according to Roe v. Wade
by Horus

....she DOES have that right. I agree that the father's input SHOULD be important, but what do you say when he wants the woman to bear a child which she doesn't want? 'No, you have have it anyway?" Could you blame women for objecting to that? Shouldn't the woman's decision be the final one in such a case, even if that's an imperfect situation?

I would guess your conclusion arises from your opposition to abortion, when all is said and done.

Re: Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by ksjayhawker
shells:

Thank you for the article.

We should not be too quick to say, "I have a right...". The decisions we make affect others - we do not make decisions in a vacuum. absolutely true. but one cannot avoid the fact that it is the woman who would have the baby--not the so-called "responsible" father, the so-called "responsible" paternal grandparents, or anyone else. the sole intent of this law is to skirt around a woman's right to choose. What do we say to the father who wants his child to have life, to have the chance to love his child? He is, after all, half of the parents. who cares? many fathers are dead beats and little to anything to do with their children after birth. they're more than happy to have the "fun" many times they don't want the responsibilty--unless they are in a loving, committed relationship with the woman of their "dreams." Or the grandparents-to-be, or other family, who are affected by a decision to terminate a pregnancy? what they don't know isn't going to hurt them. and who cares anyway. they are generally not the people who will raise the children. they've raised theirs, they have a right to live their final years anyway they want.

What the author views as "paternalistic" restrictions can also be viewed as giving women a fuller and more accurate view of their situation. do you honestly think most women are not well aware of what is going on in their body. until a baby is actually born the only identity it has is the one the woman gives it for those 9 months. It is telling that she states the restrictions "might force you to think about the fetus as having a separate identity or as the baby it could become." Why is this a bad thing? Does she want the doctor to deliver only the information that conforms to her views on the matter? facts are one thing. opinion is another. no doctor regardless of the personal viewpoint should be attempting to influence anyone about anything. She also says overturning the law would be "sparing them from a procedure that women would reject as too gruesome if they only knew the details". We wouldn't withhold details for other medical procedures, so why for abortion procedures? again only the facts are needed. opinion is beyond the pale and both unnecessary and intrusive. My conclusion: because it supports the aims of those who promote abortion, not what is in the best interests of the mother. you're blind!

Re: Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by ksjayhawker

at least you had the choice. no one has the right to take away your rights in this issue or any other area.

however, it sounds like you think no other woman has the right to make a choice that is right for her. too bad. we don't need women who think this way--their hyprocrisy is a major disservice to their sisters in gender.

this attitude makes me more angry than the laws that are created to keep women from doing what's right for them.

Re: Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by ksjayhawker
absolutely
Re: But according to Roe v. Wade
by TruettCollins
Turn it around, what if he wants her to have an abortion and she refuses.....should he then be required to pay child support for the next 18 years?
Re: But according to Roe v. Wade
by Heleva

TruettCollins:
Turn it around, what if he wants her to have an abortion and she refuses.....should he then be required to pay child support for the next 18 years?

No, he should not as it is her choice. If the father wanted the child he could opt to hire a womb to carry to term for him and not compell the woman to carry at all.

Re: Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by enfermot

"Fuller and more accurate" hardly describes the totally unfounded claims the South Dakota legislature is forcing doctors to tell patients.

Any abortion doctor should be fully informing his/her patients, but the law is putting words in his/her mouth.

Re: Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by Gumperli

Well said! You and Anduril23 are on the mark. The reason that these questions go unresolved is that the basic question is never answered. Philosophical discussions take place at three different levels. The first is the mos basic, theoretical level, which many might find dry, but it also answers the ultimate questions. The second level is the more subjective level, which is addressed in the arts. The third is the every day examples and "kitchen table talk" that usually takes place in these debates in columns, talk radio, etc. These discussions invariably revolve around political issues, strategies and name-calling, such as "paternalistic" and "fanatics", "right-wingers", "antiabortionists", etc.

In this case, though it may sound like old hat to many, the basic question is still whether the embryo and fetus are nascent human beings. If they are, then they deserve the full protection of the law, and there is actually no "right" of "choice" which can be conferred by any judicial or legislative body to take the life of another human being. There are many types of arguments one can advance - tragic circumstances, economic hardship, etc., to promote abortion, but they all sidestep the basic question of whether the developing entity is a human being. In a very small nutshell, can anyone provide a qualitative beginning to life other than conception? After fertilization, the various stages of development fade into one another just like the other stages of life. When does an "infant" become a "child". When does a "child" become an "adolescent" then an "adult". By the same token, when does a zygote become an embryo, then a fetus? When does the first heartbeat occur? When does the first brainwave occur, or are these a continuum of development? The logical formulation for such an argument is "either A or B, not B, therefore A". In the absence of any clear line of demarcation (B) between "human" and "non-human" after fertilization, then A (human life begins at fertilization) must stand. Thus, the "blob of tissue" isn't a "potential human life", but a human life with potential! It is the mother of all ironies that we are so concerned about the possibility of elimination some endangered gnat or weed in the Amazon basin in the name of preserving genetic biodiversity, but we have no compunction at all about eliminating the minds that might make use of the biodiversity for the benefit of humankind.

Another principle is the bioethical issue of informed consent. Those who promote unrestrained autonomy in health care demand complete and informed consent so that they can make an informed decision about any procedure or treatment they are about to undergo. Yet, it appears that many of these same people want to shield pregnant mothers from the reality of what they are about to undergo, lest they change their minds, because the "procedure is too gruesome", or because they might actually think the entities in their wombs are actually babies and bond with them. This is inconsistent at best and hypocritical at worst.

Yet another principle cherished by abortion proponents is the "privacy of a woman's relationship with her doctor". What people do not talk about is that abortions are essentially never done by the woman's own doctor. As a physician myself, I have had female patients tell me of their experiences in abortion clinics where they are herded together in a waiting room, then processed through like cattle going through an assembly line, by a doctor who comes in from out of town and has had no prior contact at all with these women.

We should insist on still another principle, namely equality of treatment. That is, abortionists should be accountable for following up their own patients and managing complications, such as hemorrhage, infection and perforated uterus, uterine scarring and infertility and management of psychological and emotional sequelae. What I have seen in emergency medicine is women with all these complications, and the abortionist back in his home town and unavailable. The typical situation is for the woman to undergo the procedure and have a prescription or two stuck in her hand on the way out the door. If abortionists are regarded as legitimate physicians, then why are they not held to the same exacting standards as the rest of us, who can be sued at the drop of a hat?

Although many might make light of the psychological aftereffects of abortion, they do affect many, many women. These unfortunate women grieve at the child's would-have-been birthdays, graduation dates, holidays. They are often haunted by nightmares, depression, self-inflicted punishment, family conflicts resulting from suppressed guilt and other emotions, substance abuse, etc. Family members also grieve for the siblings, grandchildren, cousins, uncles or aunts they never had, or never knew they would have had if they had been told the truth. If anyone doubts this, they should read the book Abortion Changes You.

Then there is the financial cost of abortion. Many say that babies who would likely be born into poor social environments should be aborted because of the cost of supporting them. In Politically Correct Death, by Francis Beckwith, the average, per capita, gross lifetime income is approximately $2 million ($50,000 per year x 40 yrs employment). If we multiply that by the number of abortions since the passage of Roe v. Wade in 1973, 45,000,000, we arrive at a staggering $90 TRILLION dollars we have aborted out of our GNP. Wouldn't that come in handy about now? Is that included in the "informed consent" given to pregnant women at abortion clinics? It seems that the unintended consequences of "a woman's individual right to choose" go far beyond her individual self.

Though it would be very possible to write much more on this topic, it is evident that the major sticking point is still that human (and all other sexually reproduced) life begins at conception, and thus deserves protection from that point on, and that political and frankly slanderous assertions to the contrary fall flat.

Re: Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by Hemlock3630

Hmm, I don't know one woman, myself included who had an abortion that did it on a whim. We weren't able to call up the provider and say "Hey, i want an abortion today." There already IS a waiting time between when you find out you're pregnant and when an abortion gets performed.

I'd beg to differ about the whole phycological issues about having an abortion. I haven't seen one study that wasn't supported by a pro-life group that came to a conclusion that an abortiopn scars a woman menatlly. Provide some non-biased links (don't think source of funding will shift the research outcomes? or who even gets picked to do the quizzes? you're more idealistic and trusting than I am) Most women I know who have had an abortion tend to feel relief. And to this day, I can't recall what month I had an abortion let alone when the fetus would have been born.

And your economic data assumes that that aborted fetus would have grown up and made at least $50K a year. interesting, since the average wage of Americans is quite a bit lower than that number. So your math doesn't hold up. Unless all those aborted fetuses would have been fully supported by their families without public assistance, would have gone on to college and graduated, and gotten a well-paying job. Again your math doesn't hold up. Since even in my high school class of 795 kids, 100% didn't go to college, and I can guarantee 100% aren't making at least $50K.

Wat about the economic impact all the fetuses aborted in illegal abortions pre RoevWade? Or the lost economic input from women that were maimed, ill, or died due to illegal abortions?

Re: Article on Oklahoma's ultrasound law
by romarti
The difference with your last conclusion is consent. If the doctor says I need a "circular ligation", I ask the doctor for the specifics of the procedure. If I don't ask for the specifics, he won't give them to me. I don't have the state deciding for me that I want or need to know the specifics - or even the broad outline of a "circular ligation". You say that this is the desire of those who "promote abortion". Are you truly incapable of understanding that some people truly don't want George Bush in the doctor's office with them making "moral" decisions on medical treatment?
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