A long time ago, I was a psychology major. I first came across learned helplessness while we were studying operant conditioning (B.F. Skinner).

You put rats on a metal grid, with each half of the grid connected to a separate electrical power supply. You provide a stimulus (e.g. a buzzer or light), and a couple of seconds later you electrify half the grid. The rats quickly learn to run to the safe side of the grid to avoid the shock (this type of avoidance is technically called negative reinforcement).

Take another group of rats, but instead of just half, electrify the whole grid after the stimulus. The stimulus indicates a shock is coming, but the rats quickly learn that there is no escape, and simply sit there helplessly taking the painful shocks. Even if you later change the rules and electrify only half the grid, rats which have "learned helplessness" just sit there and take the shocks.

I clearly remember how just reading about this being done to rats disturbed me deeply. Leaving aside the unimaginable moral depravity of doing this to human beings, it is difficult to see how information obtained using this technique would represent anything like good intelligence.

Widespread I think the moral depravity outweighs any effectiveness. Would you like your freedom or your children's freedom in the hands of a sadist like Maxwell, or gTurner or the other torture advocates in here? Even if your kid was a criminal or terrorist, would you let these ghouls get their hands on him?

Some people would argue that harsh measures (however one defines them) should never be used to interrogate suspects. This is a moralistic argument (although the definition of "harsh" is slippery).

Some would argue that we should do whatever is necessary to protect the greatest number of people. This is a utilitarian argument (although the definition of greatest good/ least evil is slippery).

Some would argue that a balance of the twain is required.

But no one other than a sociopath could think that learned helplessness -- which is an utter rupturing of one's autonomy and humanity -- should be used if it is not effective. And I think the rats-on-a-grid example underscores both the moral and utilitarian problems with this technique.

Cheers, Widespread

Widespread, but there are armchair sociopaths, as we see in here.

Widespread and bsharporflat, your lovefest for your dogma and mutual admiration is only proof that you cannot function in the public domain. You must resort to "singing to the choir" to find comfort in your finite thinking. The fact that you declare me to be an "armchair sociopath" and smile as you write it does not make it so. Widespread, your distaste for B.F. Skinner's experimentation on rats has no meaning whatsoever, except to bsharporflat and your kind, and of course PETA of which you both should be lifetime gold members.

As a neurosurgeon and lifetime student of neurosciences the scientific underpinnings of discovery and knowledge in neuroscience rest squarely on the shoulders of experimentation on laboratory rats, mice, macaque monkeys, squirrel monkeys, various song birds, reptiles, mammals, amphibians etc. If you don't like it, it doesn't matter to science. The fact that it is part of scientific discovery is all that matters to us and certainly not your un-educated feelings on the matter (oh sorry Widespread, you had a semester of psychology). The fact that even the "Silver Springs Monkeys" which are the most famous monkeys to be sacrificed (that means killed) at the end of more than 12 years of deafferentation (that means to surgically cut their somatasensory and motor nerves, and yes they chewed off some of their fingers because they couldn't feel them) where an incredible benefit to mankind in the science of neuroplasticity. But I digress.

Your mutual backslapping at the discovery that their is someone as equally narrow minded as you is unfortunately predictable. The fact that we use extreme measures in interrogation, is in my educated opinion, necessary, as part of the total strategic and tactical effort to defeat a decidely wicked enemy.

So go back to your easy life, and your easy job and conjure up different adjectives to describe folks like me. But remember, we are watching you very carefully, and you worry us, because of your complete lack of understanding of good and evil and the price that must be paid to insure that the greater good is realized. So who is the sociopath really?

Hm..what would happen if my neuro-surgeon suddenly decided during surgery that I was evil? Hey, apparently there are only two kinds of people in the world and JTurner seems committed to ridding the world of evil, by any means necessary. SCARY!

gturner07:

As a neurosurgeon and lifetime student of neurosciences . . .

The fact that we use extreme measures in interrogation, is in my educated opinion, necessary, as part of the total strategic and tactical effort to defeat a decidely wicked enemy.

What part of your education qualifed you to determine when and what "extreme measures" are "necessary."

gturner07:

But remember, we are watching you very carefully, and you worry us, because of your complete lack of understanding of good and evil and the price that must be paid to insure that the greater good is realized. So who is the sociopath really?

May I assume, based upon your statements, that you have a complete understanding of good and evil, and what is the greater good? Do you consider yourself qualified to determine what is the greater good for everyone? Could you please list your qualifications and describe how they make you uniquely qualified to make such determinations? Also, please explain why your determinations are superior to, and shoule take precedence over, others who might claim to be similarly qualified? Are there any other authorities we should give equal, if not more, regard to concerning said matters as yourself?

Who is this "we" you speak of, neuroscientists? I for one haven't been let in on the secret PETA/anti-torture surveillance agenda of neuroscientists.

I think the point, though, is that experimentation on animals may be necessary for the greater good, but the moral problems associated with that (and you must admit I hope that there is a grey moral area related to animal experimentation) are amplified when using similar practices on fellow human beings. Humans are not rats to be tortured and experimented on no matter how much you determine them to be "evil."

Have you not discovered in your years of neuroscience that humans are too complex to be broken down into "good" or "evil?" Have you not discovered that the competing impulses of our experiences, fears, needs and desires make differentiation between what is good and right and what is evil and wrong difficult to ascertain? Can you not unerstand that the same thinking that leads you to advocate the torture of other human beings is the same thinking that leads some to advocate the use of terrorism for political gain?

Scotty, the answers to your questions are clear. No. Gturner has not done any of those things.

bsharporflat, how long did you sit and ponder to come up with that zinger? At one point we were discussing the strategic and tactical aspects of waging war. Did you forget or did your liberal posterior lobe override your ability to debate and serve you up a nice dish of selective memory on a room temperature platter?

jascob, settle down buddy, take a deep breath. Unfortunately your about 30 posts behind on the debate at hand. bsharporflat decided to take the conversation to another level and declare me to be an "armchair sociopath." He is an expert in such matters of course so I simply decided to take it up a notch as well.

To answer your question, it is my opinion sir, only my opinion. Yes, I have traveled the long and winding road and developed my world view based on both cognitive and material reduction. But in the end, it is only my opinion. Remember where we are... Slate... The Fray... Jurisprudence... anyone, anyone, Bueller, anyone! I'm sure your just as informed as I am on these matters and your opinion is as equally important to you as mine is to me. So until you and I (maybe bsharporflat too) are sitting at the Grand United Galactic Federation cabinet meeting and asked to weigh in on the pressing matters that threaten to blast us all to smithereens we'll just continue along the path here at the Fray. How does that sound? Enjoy!

notice gturner quaking in his boots, afraid the terrorists will uproot him from his armchair. There is no limit to the number of innocent people we might kill in our efforts to prevent that.