no one else would have them. would muslims allow non muslims to come live in their countries and build churches or other houses of worship and follow a different way of life. No, they have too much sense, too much belief in themselves, and no wish to see their countries and cultures diluted. They acknowledge the value of their way of life and want to preserve it.

The sad thing about this is that it shows the limits of liberalism. In the first place, the liberals are not as liberal as they think. when they are confronted with the "other" in large numbers, they get scared. and the fear is not totally irrational. because in the second place, the "other" is not liberal and makes it clear that his desire is to eliminate all that is not himself and to continue to be what he was before he came to europe, except with more money. and this is a natural human desire, that only western european people have, to any extent at all, managed to overcome, which is why the germans have an immigration policy that is changing the nature of their nation.

a friend of mine who has not had a date for two years was going to get set up with someone, but she would not do it when she found out the guy was not for obama. If americans who are the same race and religion can't stand people with other values, what does that say for the possibility of peoples who have everything different between them getting along and while inhabiting the same nation.

Actually, most Muslim countries do have important non-Muslim expat populations and they usually enjoy their own life style as well as enclaves where they can have churches or other places of worship. So your point is pretty moot.

Alphast: I agree with you that many Muslim majority countries have non-Muslim populations. However, I do not agree that most of these non-Muslim communities are important. In many Muslim-majority countries like Iran or Pakistan, the non-Muslims form an insignificant part of the population statistically. Although in more than a few Muslim countries, like Lebanon, Indonesia, Malaysia, and Egypt, Non-Muslims form very large parts of the population. Whether they are important or not varies considerably.

The rights of non-Muslims in Muslim majority countries also vary considerably from abismal like Saudi Arabia to rather okay like Turkey or Malaysia. Conditions vary widely.

I'd also say there is a difference between ex-pat enclaves like those that exist for the personal of oil companies in countires like Saudi Arabia and the Muslim communities in the West. The ex-pats are not in the Muslim countries forever. There kids will eventually return to the home countries. Muslim minorities are in the West for the long run.

I have also heard that attempting to convert a Muslim to another religion in those countries is a capital crime. In the west, needless to say, Muslims are winning converts right and left (but mostly left).

Fenella:

no one else would have them. would muslims allow non muslims to come live in their countries and build churches or other houses of worship and follow a different way of life. No, they have too much sense, too much belief in themselves, and no wish to see their countries and cultures diluted. They acknowledge the value of their way of life and want to preserve it. ...

A rather myopic view. There are tons of foreign carpetbaggers in Dubai. Foreigners probably outnumber native Dubai people in that country. There are a sizeable number working in Saudi Arabia for Saudi Aramco and other oil companies also. Keep in mind that the foreigners in these countries are very well paid and live in comfortable cocoons. If you were a poor local in Saudi Arabia- how would you feel watching these foreigners take the best and most highly paid jobs in your own country, pumping the valuable oil out of your grounds, while you and your family are eking out a living herding goats?

As to cultural dilution- in fact western culture is the most toxic weed the world over. You've got Starbucks setting up shop inside the Forbidden City in China. You see english signs on tourist shops all over Lhasa or Phuket. Far from being the victim, western and american culture are killing and endangering every local culture the world over.

dear icemilk,

far from being endangered, those other cultures are becoming more fundamentalist and more chauvinistic and less inclined to become liberal.

and when you say killing local cultures, has any american ever forced anyone to listen to rap or watch the simpsons or wear a thong bikini? I think not. Americans in Iraq are not forcing iraqi women to go without head coverings or trying to convert people. Imagine the hysteria that would cause. People are attracted to western culture, not just because of the wealth, but because it seems like fun. At the same time, they are repelled because they can see many aspects of the west are inimical to their conservative, old fashioned, traditional values. So they resist, and they have a right to resist. But so do we.

People like you don't realize that the world is not made up of liberals who embrace abortion and homosexuality. Such things are anathema to most people. Muslims would rather kill than let someone critisize their religion. I understand that. People like you need to appreciate how far westerners have come from that viewpoint. Maybe you won't appreciate it until you see the effects of the cultures you champion in your everyday life. The future is not going to be about more liberation, more freedom, more choice, more alternative lifestyles. it is going to be about fundamentalism and tradition. The example of non western cultures is putting pressure on westerners to be like that. If it is okay for them, if there is nothing inherently wrong with what they do, why is it no okay for us. Think about that seriously.

Fenella:

dear icemilk,

...and when you say killing local cultures, has any american ever forced anyone to listen to rap or watch the simpsons or wear a thong bikini? I think not. ...

Noone is forcing the young 2nd generation muslims to start donning hijabs neither. Somehow people are scared to death of the muslim cultures 'taking over', without realizing that it is the western culture that has been 'taking over' the world.

Western culture is in fact far more toxic because it is backed by Hollywood and Madison Avenue. No local traditions can withstand the force of these billion dollar image making industries.