I think even the phrase "demon rum" is out of the 18th century and your response in using itl was as well. Yes, she was certainly selfish about her friend not wanting to go out and have a good time with her --- but you needn't have made it into an AA lecture which is what it sounded like.

If they had an accident or something along those lines then it may have been necessary to provide her with a bit of a lecture ---

I don't really care what you think about alcohol --- and I read your column only to see what advice you give to your readers and not to learn more about you personally--- you have a long way to go before you can fill the shoes of the original deal prudence, take that to the bank....

and, although I am glad that you, in a previous letter, talked about being very pro-choice --- that was also something that I did not need to know about you ---

stick to the subject matter at hand --- if you have an interesting personal storyline then that makes it all the more interesting ---

seadreamer:

Yes, she was certainly selfish about her friend not wanting to go out and have a good time with her --- but you needn't have made it into an AA lecture which is what it sounded like.

I am a huge Emily Yoffe fan and agree with her advice 99% of the time but I do think she was a little off here. Young people go out and drink. It might be boring but it is what we do. When we get older, we tend to stop, particularly once we get into relationships and stop drinking with random strangers (in the hopes of meeting someone).

The roommate here sounded selfish and wrong but probably didn't have an alcohol problem. Maybe, but there wasn't enough info for me to tell.

That said, I think Ms. Yoffe is a fantastic Prudence and I liked her better than the former Prudence from day 1. Just sayin.

I was actually laughing inside when she said 'demon rum'. That's a phrase I hadn't heard since my teens--my friend used to hang with Baptists. LOL. I don't mind when she interjects her own political viewpoints, your beliefs are part of who you are and she was using that phrase to make a point.

I'm a big fan of the phrase "demon rum" - must be that Presbyterian / Baptist upbringing. It makes me feel like Yoffe has something in common with this young lady who has no desire to stay out all night, and thus is better qualified to give advice.

Sorry, Emily, but you wrote that you knew this was coming: you were asked for help, not for your personal perspective on what *should* constitute a good time (that's a matter of taste, is it not?).

Here's how it works: some young folks like to go out and get dangerously drunk with each other. Since this is dangerous, they do it in groups and expect their friends to look out for one another so that they don't get Natalie Holloway'ed (among other sad possibilities). You don't have to like it, Emily, but you were not asked whether you did.

You *were* asked if the writer should put this issue aside and forgive her roommate. The answer is 'yes': the pair of them planned a vacation, the roomie was planning on having the author there to help watch her back, and the roomie felt betrayed (and possibly frightened?) that the author wasn't there for her. I sympathize with the author's reasons for backing out--pain is tough to bear--but her roomie's reasons for being upset were also legitimate. The author should try to forgive *and* be pleased that she got forgiven in the first place.

Speaking as a young folk who likes to go out and has, on occasion, gotten dangerously drunk ... sorry, but I agree with Emily on this one. Granted (as is usual with these letters), we don't know the entire story, but I've had a few "friends" like this roommate. Firstly, she made the LW feel guilty for scheduling a needed surgery, and then made her feel even more guilty for not sublimating her pain to stay up and help her get blotto.

The author should try to forgive, yes, because that's the grown-up thing to do, but be pleased that she got forgiven in the first place? Sure, if you also feel that battered women should be pleased after their boyfriends or husbands apologize after hitting them ...

pinkballoon:

the pair of them planned a vacation, the roomie was planning on having the author there to help watch her back, and the roomie felt betrayed (and possibly frightened?) that the author wasn't there for her.

Um... she WAS there for this "friend". Despite still being in recovery from painful surgery, she went on the trip. And the night in question, she waited until 2.30 am. At that point a "friend" would say, OK, let's go back to the hotel. No one made the selfish roommate put herself in danger. All of which is why I say "'friend'", and not "friend".

Just who betrayed whom, here?

pinkballoon:

the pair of them planned a vacation, the roomie was planning on having the author there to help watch her back, and the roomie felt betrayed (and possibly frightened?) that the author wasn't there for her.

Um... she WAS there for this "friend". Despite still being in recovery from painful surgery, she went on the trip. And the night in question, she waited until 2.30 am. At that point a "friend" would say, OK, let's go back to the hotel. No one made the selfish roommate put herself in danger. All of which is why I say "'friend'", and not "friend".

Just who betrayed whom, here?

I certainly think staying out until 2:30 am to make sure your roommate was able to have a fun, drunken night is more than enough even if the LW wasn't feeling well.

I hear rum tastes nasty!

IncogNeato:

I hear rum tastes nasty!

But then again, so do demons... nasty good.

I see a double-standard at work. Had the friend gotten plastered by 2:30 and gotten sick or passed out, I doubt there'd have been any accusations about her not being there for her friend. It'd just be a funny party store along the lines of "You were so wasted." But since she wasn't feeling well for a non-partying reason, it's suddenly a problem.

As for the argument that the friend had planned on partying and this somehow spoiled it all...the girl was sick. Not like she planned on this happening. She could have skipped the entire trip. Now, that would have really messed things up for the friend. Instead, the friend still got basically everything she wanted. I doubt she'd have called the trip off had she known ahead of time her friend would "only" be staying out until 2:30 a.m.

I've commented on this post elsewhere, so I'll TRY to be brief, but as a sober member of AA, I must take exception to your choice of words; namely: "AA Lecture." My experience of AA has never included lectures. Lots of talking (sometimes rambling) and good advice, but "lectures;" not so much. (Perhaps the "rehab industry," which has dumped so many unwilling addicts and alcoholics into AA against their wishes, makes attendance at AA meetings seem like attendance at a lecture series for those who really don't want to, and therefore really shouldn't, be there.)

My experience of AA (including my own, personal story) HAS included plenty of denial, which I hear in the letter-writer's story and the responses to it. Also some enabling.

Selfishness and self-centeredness, heightened sensitivity to one's own needs coupled with massive insensitivity to those of others; these are just a few of the hallmarks of the alcoholic mind. Sometimes, because our enabling society says things like "oh, young people drink dangerously; that's just what they do," the moment of "pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization" that signifies the alcoholic's "bottom" is postponed, often with disastrous results.

"Demon rum" is just a poetic or high-flown and time-honored expression to denote alcohol and its well-known toxic effects on those who really shouldn't consume it. (And I'm not one who believes that NO one should consume it. Those who can, should go ahead. However, there are those of us who do not so much consume alcohol as have alcohol consume us. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell which kind of person you are until your life and the lives of others are heavily impacted, usually in the negative.)

Bottom line; the roommate sounds like an alcoholic, and the friend sounds like an "untreated al-alon." I hope they both get the help they need and that their lives improve.

Helen O:

as a sober member of AA, I must take exception to your choice of words; namely: "AA Lecture."

It's precisely because you view yourself as a sober member of AA that you feel this way. AA has a very cult like mentality associated with it which causes it's members to point at people and say, "You have a problem. That problem can be solved by AA. There is no other way to solve this problem.", which most pepole find distasteful. The reality is that the sucess rate of AA is the same as the sucess rate of the general population at large.

Helen O:

Selfishness and self-centeredness, heightened sensitivity to one's own needs coupled with massive insensitivity to those of others; these are just a few of the hallmarks of the alcoholic mind.

Selfishness and self-centeredness occur. One doesn't need to be an alcoholic to be this way, and not all alcoholics are selfish and self-centered. Also, not all people who get drunk occasionally are alcoholics.

Helen O:

Sometimes, because our enabling society says things like "oh, young people drink dangerously; that's just what they do," the moment of "pitiful and incomprehensible demoralization" that signifies the alcoholic's "bottom" is postponed, often with disastrous results.

Sometimes. But many times those young people grow up, and with increased responsibility, increased draws on their time and an inability to bounce back those young people stop doing it. There are plenty of well adjusted, responsible people who spent a few years as drunken frat boys.

Helen O:

Bottom line; the roommate sounds like an alcoholic, and the friend sounds like an "untreated al-alon." I hope they both get the help they need and that their lives improve.

The roommate sounds selfish, but without more information it's a bit early to call her an alcoholic. The LW needs to grow a backbone. This is all simply a part of growing up, not something that requires daily meetings to correct.

Such defensiveness is a characteristic of many an untreated alcoholic. Also the finger-pointing at AA (where in any of my postings did I say that AA was the only way to sobriety?).

Cults try to separate us from the world. In my experience, AA makes those of us who are alcoholics fit to live in it. The "AA = Cult" assertions have been around for a long time; those who espuse them have neither an understanding of AA or cults.

Have a good day, live, grow, and be happy, jouyous and free.