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Is greed a sin?
by Anse

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Does anybody give a crap about greed anymore? Is it still considered a sin?

I guess greed ought to be carefully defined. The Good Book doesn't really help us in this regard. The ten commandments order us to refrain from coveting our neighbor's possessions. And while Jesus famously noted how difficult it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, we've found numerous ways to get around that.

My own personal definition of greed is the obsessive desire for material wealth even when it is undeserved. "Deserve" is another one of those tricky words that are not hard to define in broad terms, but very difficult to apply; we could argue the point for days and never agree.

An economist on the radio Sunday said that the root cause of our current crisis is pretty simply summed up: there is too much debt in the economy. Too much debt is often (though not always) a result of wanting more than one deserves.

Americans have always found ways to rationalize our capitalism with our Christianity ( the "social Darwinism" of the 19th century robber barons notwithstanding). The Christian defense of capitalism is nothing new. It's the way we've been since the Puritan colonies; that sect believed wealth was a sign of favor from God. "Prosperity theology" is just a newer, more superficial iteration of that belief.

What we need to do is stop defending all examples of the pursuit of wealth and begin calling out the executive class for what it is: a lot of very greedy good old boys who don't really give a rat's ass about the regular joe.

Please note that I'm not suggesting a government clamp-down on the rich. What I'd like to see is more people of faith speaking out against what we all know is true. America is a nation drunk on convenience, a sense of entitlement that inspires us to live on easy credit, unwittingly causing us to forget that there are consequences for our actions.

The bill for our cushy lifestyle has been due for some time. Now we have to pay it.

Re: Is greed a sin?
by white light

How do you define greed? if it truly satisfies and one finds contentment in it, how can it be bad. But if one is always striving for more of the same and never satisfied then it seams that one is looking in the wromg place for satisfacti-o-n. And what does satisfy any way. It seams that not many of us have gone beyond the basic needs in life, that most reach one quite low level of 'need' and just improve on that , bigger and better, rather than getting compfy and then going for higher levels of pleasure, knowledge etc. We cannot all be the same we cannot all achieve what celebs ect have, why do so many aspire? beyond me. If more of us could be content with our lot in life 'be it ever so humble' or not, wouldn't it be wondrful?

Thrd world ..... that I do believe is just politics. I know that there is enough to go round and that we have the tecno to make any land fertile ect.

Re: Is greed a sin?
by white light
And is it such a bad thing that we have to calm down a bit, which is what we all must now do. Is it really that we are having to give stuff up//Are we not going to in fact going to gain from it? To the slightest degree. At last people will have a common bond. hard times are often the happiest I have found. Not always I add.
Re: Is greed a sin?
by wifeofjgc
In answer to the first question-I think very few people, regardless of their religious tradition (or not), care much about greed.

Greed is completed institutionalized into our economic system. We are spending billions to bail out these jerks because we can't let them pay the price of their greed.

And yet, if I stopped paying my bills tomorrow I'd be living on the streets in no time and no amount of whining on my part would induce the government to hold hearings on bailing me out.

We could all live together, with what we need and a little beauty besides but have allowed the 'free market" to create an us/them socio-economic dichotomy that is collapsing under it's own weight now.

All because of greed.

Re: Is greed a sin?
by Anse

I have often made the argument that the "Greatest Generation," that one that fought World War II to victory, was not great because they were particularly faithful or righteous and moral or whatever.

What made them great was the Great Depression. They were hardened by economic conflict. And if they were more faithful, on average, than we are today, it is only because economic hardship, like natural disasters and war, tends to make people more introspective.

Very little has been asked of us since then. We are unwitting victims of our own prosperity. It's time for a wake-up call.

Re: Is greed a sin?
by white light
My father said that the war years were the happiest that he experienced in his life time (not incuding personal stuff) It was because there was common danger here ,yes, all were in the same boat and had to pull togetherrationing and all that. Not every one had the same experience as my Pa but yes that is my point. We are not , most of us, going to be loosers through 'hard times'.
Re: Is greed a sin?
by white light
I do not think that any of us should feel guilt for having been more compfy 'greedy'. We learn just as much from the good times as the bad. When younger I wanted so badly and worked very hard for what turned out to be emptiness and for years I have regreted time and lots and lots and lots of money wasted but actually I gained through all those experiences as well as the more enduring hard times. I have a far deeper understanding and empathy gained from my weakness rather from my seemingly unlimited strengths. Got to go I am utting off my house work ... weakness.... whilst whiling away the hours with you lot xxxx tat ta x have fun in the gas queue hope you have a laugh with some one.
Re: Is greed a sin?
by Boss Greer
Anse:

What we need to do is stop defending all examples of the pursuit of wealth and begin calling out the executive class for what it is: a lot of very greedy good old boys who don't really give a rat's ass about the regular joe.

Ummm, it's been my experience that a significant percentage of this so-called 'executive class' is made up of motivated and intelligent people who have either 'been there - done that' or gotten exceptional educations (or both) and worked their ass off to get to where they are.

Your screed sounds like class envy to me...

Re: Is greed a sin?
by white light
Just one more little reflexion. The sixties are when the 'people' started to be able to afford a better life. It is not so long ago, we have hardly got used to it really but this generation doesn't remember and so it feels as though it is the end of the world. We do evolve and we are evolving, if we all eat too much cake for a while after only old crusts for too long, it is normal, now we just go back to a sensible diet and take a deep breath and go forward xxxx
Re: Is greed a sin?
by white light
Yer (with fairness not greed) I never believed in knocking those off the top rung. better to help those on the bottom rung up a bit.slowly slowly, no revelusions please, no good for the digestion :-)
Re: Is greed a sin?
by NightSwimmer
You don't need Scripture to answer that one. You only need convoluted interpretations of Scripture to justify greed.
Re: Is greed a sin?
by Anse
Boss Greer:
Anse:

What we need to do is stop defending all examples of the pursuit of wealth and begin calling out the executive class for what it is: a lot of very greedy good old boys who don't really give a rat's ass about the regular joe.

Ummm, it's been my experience that a significant percentage of this so-called 'executive class' is made up of motivated and intelligent people who have either 'been there - done that' or gotten exceptional educations (or both) and worked their ass off to get to where they are.

Your screed sounds like class envy to me...

Boss, you will never convince me that these motivated and intelligent people deserve millions of dollars in bonuses as reward for ruining their company.

I'm not beating up on those who earned it. I'm attacking those who plainly did not.

Re: Is greed a sin?
by fortunateson

"I guess greed ought to be carefully defined. The Good Book doesn't really help us in this regard."

I believe that it does. In fact, it often defines and equates greed specifically with idol worshiping, or idolatry.

The biblical texts speak of tov versus ra, that is - function versus dysfunction, balance versus imbalance, perfect versus imperfect - good versus bad [if you must so use these terms].

Desire is a human instinct, or trait; in fact, a necessary one. For example - one desires to breath, to eat, to drink, to companionship, to rest, to work, and so on. Each one of these basics, however, requires a balanced view in order to prove functional [tov]. To eat is good. Eating supplies the human body with nutrients and other substances required to maintain life. Eat too little and you will become dysfunctional [ra] relative to life [e.g., you may even eventually die from not having eaten enough] - eat too much and you will also become dysfunctional [ra] relative to life [e.g., you may eventually die as a direct result from overeating]. To drink water is good - not enough water and you will suffer, perhaps even die from dehydration. Conversely, drink too much water, and you could place your very life at significant risk [wasn't there a young women somewhere recently who died as a direct result of drinking too much water in some sort of a contest?]. Function versus dysfunction, balance versus imbalance, and good versus bad.

Desire itself is no different than these things. If you do not have sufficient desire for the elements which sustain life you will suffer, die even, as a direct result. If your desire for such things is too strong [e.g., “greed”], you will also suffer, and possibly lose your life.

A small campfire which cooks food is quite functional; an out-of-control raging inferno which consumes the entire forest as well as the campground would prove quite dysfunctional for the purpose of cooking food.

Control seems to be a central issue from the biblical perspective. You know the sayings … “Do you work to live, or live to work” … “Does money serve your immediate needs, or do your needs serve money”.

In Ephesians 5:5 Paul states, “For you know very well that no immoral or impure person, or anyone who is greedy (that is, an idolater), has an inheritance in the kingdom of the Messiah and of God”.

The koine Greek word used by the author here for the English translated “greedy” is pleonekteô, which simply means “to have or claim more than one's due, to get or have too much, to be greedy, grasping, and even arrogant”. He even goes as far to claim that being greedy is equivalent to being an idol worshiper, idolater - e.g., ho estin eidoloatres.

Desire serves the human existence; greed on the other hand, is when the human makes desire his or her master. This condition falls outside of the original intent, function, and purpose for the human being - a path not intended for travel [by definition then, this is khate, or "sin" if you will] - be on it intentionally with full knowledge, and the bible calls you rasha. The Hebrew and Christian Greek Scriptures pretty much make clear the admonishment relative to being an idol worshipper [Exodus 20:3 for starters].

Greed [desire out of control] may also indicate that the person does not trust Yhwh to make good his promise made all what is needed will be supplied [Matthew 6:33] to those placing their full trust in him. In a sense, greed could be easily conceived as “turning away from Yhwh” - and in this sense, the bible classifies it as "idolatry" as well.

Jesus seems to have provided a similar warning to Paul’s as he commands his followers to guard against longing for something that we do not have, "Keep your eyes open and guard against every sort of greed, because even when a person has an abundance his life does not result from the things he possesses" [Luke 12:15]. Here, the author employs “pleonexia”, which is the conduct and character specifically of a pleonektês - e.g., greediness, grasping, assumption, arrogance, et al.

This verse, and his subsequent illustrations, seems to demonstrate that greed is based on the foolish foundation and principle that what matters in life is how much one has, be it money, food, attire, power, status, et al. To engage in such practice, demonstrates the condition of a person’s “heart condition”, or the “authority within”, the lev, and is the very basis upon which one is judged by Yhwh, as it demonstrates a person’s trust toward Yhwh and the placement of themselves as being equal or higher in position relative to their own creator [see Genesis Chapter 3]. Does Jesus himself not conclude specifically in Luke 12 that only Yhwh can, and will, serve to satisfy our needs as living, breathing, creatures?

It's bad, and counterproductive
by Horus

I don't believe in "sin," so I can't really answer that, but it used to be considered one of the Seven Deadly Sins, I believe ('avaritia' in Latin).

Certainly America is a greedy nation full of greedy people, though...

A "significant percentage?"
by Horus

What, 10 percent? 15?

Most executive types are very ambitious guys (and most are men) who have pushed hard to get to the top so as to enjoy the maximum in money, influence, benefits, and power. Once they get there, they know that those things will continue, and that even if they're fired or quit to go elsewhere, their perks will continue or even increase. This is true even if they've mismanaged their own companies, though of course success breeds considerable increases in those perks.

Given what anyone can read in the business news going back at least 20 years, your apologia sounds like the comments of someone in denial...

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