I couldn't help but groan and roll my eyes when I first read of Engdahl's comments. They represent only the latest manifestation of a deep seated anti-Americanism held in common by many of his caste in Europe.

However, such a simplistic and prejudiced view of other cultures is not unique to Europeans. I lived in America during 2004 and was astounded by the casual disdain that many over there had for continental Europe. Rumsfeld's dismissal of France and Germany as "old" Europe was applauded in many quarters, while there seemed a consensus that France in particular, and Europe in general was past it, an entity to be either patronised and condescended to, or angrily dismissed. My boss in America swore almost daily that he'd "like to kick some French butt", and saw their refusal to subordinate their own foreign policy to Bush's as treachery. French goods and products were boycotted too. And I won't even start on freedom fries!

I don't think that Americans realise how sour a taste this left in the mouths of many Europeans. The great mass of people in Germany, Holland, Spain etc look with great admiration and respect on the US. To have such vitriolic contempt poured on them because they disagreed with American foreign policy was unsettling, and caused many to question whether America wanted a friend and ally in Europe, or a submissive sycophant.

While much of the anti-European rhetoric of the past few years can be explained as somewhat knee-jerk, an emotional rather than cerbebral response to a certain set of circumstances, it seems to me that there is a deeper, more innate Europhobia common to many Americans. One only has to glance through the Fray to see evidence of this. In response to an article on the EU a few months ago, the refrain amongst a sizeable proportion of posters was along the lines of Europe as a socialist basketcase. More recently, Obama is dismissed as being "European" by conservative commentators, and his policies derided in a similar manner- if this is not indicative of an underlying Europhobia amongst at least a section of American society, then I don't know what is.

Perhaps I'm generalising here, but such attitudes towards the Old World seem more prevalent amongst those who consider themselves conservative. It's only a theory on my part, but I think a lot of it stems from the fact that Europe is, in many ways, so unAmerican. In fact, one might even go as far as to say that Europe is something of the antithesis of America. Unrestrained capitalism versus interventionism, individualism versus socialism etc. Indeed, this distinctness often seems a source of pride amongst continental Europeans in particular. I think that some Americans look at the the huge sacrifices made by their forebears to rid Europe of Nazism, and programmes such as the Marshall plan, and view the European social and economic systems as something of a snub. As accepting American aid and assistance, and then deliberately forging a new place in the world as the unAmerica of the West.

Anyway, I think it's fair to say that there is as much Europhobia in America, as there is its counterpart in France, Germany etc. As for the Nobel, what should matter is greatness in literary achievement, regardless of nationality, culture etc. In this light, the fact that only two Americans have won the thing in the past 40 years is ludicrous, and an indictment of an organisation which seems to place politcs on an equal footing with literary output when awarding its prizes.

Europeans respect us? that's news. Every day the lib media tells american how much they hate us and how superior they are to americans.

It's ironic that the level of anti-Americanism you perceive in the average European is matched only by the your very real Europhobia. Care to back up your statement about the "lib" media telling Americans how much Europeans hate you? Or are you all mouth?

Google 'european disdain'.

The fact that the top 20 or 30 articles deal with America..is telling don't you think? So is it true or just perceived through the articles fed to the American masses?

I think the media (be it 'lib' or Fox news) likes to use anti-American headlines and drum up discord because it sells, eh?

To the extent that Americans put any serious thought into Europe they almost always prefer it in one way or another. Most Americans are ignorant of it altogether and it does not enter into their thinking. I don't think a quid pro quo type of analysis works here- Europeans are far more disdainful and mindful of the US than vice-versa. There is a fairly small contingent of conservative Americans who look down on their policies but they're few and far between. Even those Americans gladly vacation there and enjoy its charms.

And being called "old" doesn't quite match up with having your President being compared to Hitler- by a German MP if you can wrap your mind around that. In all, I think the US wins the grievance sweepstakes though what prize that gets us is unclear.

Vis-a-vis Iraq: I think we have a different definition of "submissive." Bush asked if the European powers wanted to commit troops. Very few of them did. Enough said. I could understand if- after Afghanistan- the US invaded Iraq, Syria, Iran, Belgium, Malaysia, Burundi and Paraguay [all with European support in either troops, money or materiel] how our European allies would be a bit weary and cried "Basta!"

But given that we can hardly get most European powers to commit troops- real, actual soldiers who, you know, fight- to the "good" war in Afghanistan your cry of "We are your allies" rings a little hollow. It's easy to be a friend if nothing is required of you. Everyone is your brother until the rent is due.

Einhard wrote:

I couldn't help but groan and roll my eyes when I first read of Engdahl's comments. They represent only the latest manifestation of a deep seated anti-Americanism held in common by many of his caste in Europe.

However, such a simplistic and prejudiced view of other cultures is not unique to Europeans. I lived in America during 2004 and was astounded by the casual disdain that many over there had for continental Europe.

I don't think that Americans realise how sour a taste this left in the mouths of many Europeans. The great mass of people in Germany, Holland, Spain etc look with great admiration and respect on the US. To have such vitriolic contempt poured on them because they disagreed with American foreign policy was unsettling, and caused many to question whether America wanted a friend and ally in Europe, or a submissive sycophant.

Well, I think it's only natural to dislike people who first declare their contempt for you. And Europeans did just that. Their demonstration placards didn't say, "We think your tactics are a foolish and self-defeating approach towards achieving your admittedly noble goals in the Middle East."

What's worse, Europeans honored evil self-hating Americans such as Noam Chomsky with European speaking engagements. (I don't much like _anyone_ -- American or otherwise -- listens to Chomsky.)

While much of the anti-European rhetoric of the past few years can be explained as somewhat knee-jerk, an emotional rather than cerbebral response to a certain set of circumstances, it seems to me that there is a deeper, more innate Europhobia common to many Americans.

Other Europeans have said, "We only acted that way because we were angry, and because we wanted to force you to change course." Well, anger is no excuse; and it's dangerous -- most Americans in our naivety tend to assume that people mean what they say. It's one thing to say that our tactics are stupid; it's quite another to claim that we have been a force for evil in the world.

Actually, maybe Europeans _didn't_ say that. Maybe it was American leftists who said, "America has been a force for evil in the world and that's why the world hates us!" But we hear that and figure that if the rest of the world (not just Islamafascists) consider us an evil presence, then the whole rest of the world (not just the Islamafascists) must be evil. In this case, the American Left is guilty (unintentionally) of promoting anti-European feelings among Americans. You should speak to them about that.

Perhaps I'm generalising here, but such attitudes towards the Old World seem more prevalent amongst those who consider themselves conservative.

I think that's accurate. It's because of the special contempt Europeans express for conservative Americans and their ideas. Whether the American in question votes conservative because he's anti-socialist, or because he's a sincere Christian who opposes changing the standards of sexual morality, or because he's an NRA supporter who demands respect for his right to shoot down muggers and burglars, Europeans (at least those who write for the newspapers) seem to despise them.

For example, I've read many British newspaper articles demanding more gun control "so that they don't develop an American-style gun culture." So I give it back to them, explaining at every opportunity that I carry a gun and urge others to do so, in order that America not develop an "English-style robbery culture".

Perhaps we should have the humility not to respond to insults, but how many people who express contempt for you in public do _you_ like?

It's only a theory on my part, but I think a lot of it stems from the fact that Europe is, in many ways, so unAmerican. In fact, one might even go as far as to say that Europe is something of the antithesis of America. Unrestrained capitalism versus interventionism, individualism versus socialism etc. Indeed, this distinctness often seems a source of pride amongst continental Europeans in particular. I think that some Americans look at the the huge sacrifices made by their forebears to rid Europe of Nazism, and programmes such as the Marshall plan, and view the European social and economic systems as something of a snub. As accepting American aid and assistance, and then deliberately forging a new place in the world as the unAmerica of the West.

Actually, most Americans are content to mind their own business and let Europe be Europe. I think a lot of the irritation results from the habit of American liberals to whine about how much better the European way is. So there might be some emotionally immature resentment of Europe -- sort of like the resentment a child might towards his sister when parents and others constantly compare him unfavorably to her. (That's more reason to blame the American Left for causing Europhobia among conservatives.)

Anyway, I think it's fair to say that there is as much Europhobia in America, as there is its counterpart in France, Germany etc.

Yes, probably so. This is particularly true when you consider that half the Democratic Party votes come from blacks whose ancestors came from Africa and "hispanics" whose ancestors were Native Americans. Both groups are understandably pretty apathetic about Europe. Among those Americans whose ancestry is European (and who therefore ought feel the closest connection), two thirds voted for Bush -- and therefore take European hostility against Bush personally.

Jews still tend to vote overwhelmingly Democratic Party (between 80% and 90%), but I can't say that they're any more enthusiastic about Europe than Bush supporters -- what with the European press' lack of sympathy for the hard choices Israel is forced to make, and the continued pride among Europeans on their support for the Palestininans despite the latter's cruelty (e.g. honoring a "fighter" for putting a gun to an infant's head and pulling the trigger). American Jews tend to feel that if Europeans cannot distinguish between a child who dies when a missle strikes an artillery battery placed on the roof of the child's home versus people dancing in joy because a gun's muzzle was placed against a baby's skull and his brains blown out -- then maybe Europeans are not so admirable.

As for the Nobel, what should matter is greatness in literary achievement, regardless of nationality, culture etc. In this light, the fact that only two Americans have won the thing in the past 40 years is ludicrous, and an indictment of an organisation which seems to place politcs on an equal footing with literary output when awarding its prizes.

On that subject, I have no opinion, as I am insufficiently cultured in fine literature to be able to say whether Americans deserved to win more than that. Nor do I think my country's pride is at stake should it turn out we're _not_ so good at writing novels. And I admit that we're substandard in foreign-language capability, and on that basis might indeed be more ignorant than we should be in foreign literature. (Not that I consider foreign -- or any -- politically-motivated literature to be worth much.)

Ancatdub:

Google 'european disdain'.

Yes, but a Google search gives no idea of the frequency of such articles, which is at the nub of Fenella's arguement (and I presume yours). Indeed, if you had actually looked at the dates of said articles, you'd have seen that they date back over 5 years. Thirty articles over a five year period, spread across a vast array of media, hardly constitutes a desire by the media to perpetuate a sense of American inadequacy. Indeed, I glanced at one or two of the articles and found that that some were actually quite positive about America. An example: Spain stands by American ally despite disdain over policy in Iraq. So your evidence for widespread anti-Americanism and the MSM's role in it seems pretty shaky.

To Geoff7, your points are pretty reasonable, but you confuse the attitutdes of a European culural elite with those of the European masses. There is no doubt, as I noted that there is an insidious anti-Americanism in many sections of educated European high society. Indeed, Engdahl is a perfect example of the type. However, to admit this admittedly high profile condescension with the European zeitgeist is wrong. Barack Obama just received a rapturous reception in several European countries. Bill Clinton was similarly received in Ireland and the UK. The same can be said of Reagan and Kennedy, both of whom were greeted with huge outpourings of enthusiasm during visits to Europe. How can you reconcile this reality with your perception of mass anti-American sentiment in Europe?

In the past few years there have been massive rallies against American policies across the world. Not just in Europe, but in Asia, Australia, and in American towns and cities too. Are all of these people similarly anti-American? These rallies denounced Tony Blair as well as George Bush. Are they examples of a similar Anglophobia? Indeed, many on Slate and across the American media decried American policy viz Iraq, and continue to do so. Further evidence of an anti-American agenda? You can't equate a genuine opposition to the policies of a particular American president with widespread anti-Americanism.

As for Afghanistan, I'd be the first to deplore the situation that we've allowed to develop in that country, and the fact that more troops are needed. However, it is simply untrue to state America's European allies have failed to contribute. France, that great bogeyman of the American Right, currently has over 4000 troops in the country. Germany has almost 3000 present, and as far as I know actually changed longstanding policy about the role of its armed forces to allow for this. The Netherlands have about 1700, and the UK over 5000 troops present. Indeed, Article V of the NATO charter was invoked for the first time in the aftermath of 9/11, and unanimously supported by America's European allies, so please spare me the canard about Europe failing to show support in America's time of need.

While there is a strong sentiment of anti-Americanism in sections of European society, I still feel that a low level Europhobia is more common in America than you appreciate, and even a cursory glance through these boards confirms this.

Einhard:

Ancatdub:

Google 'european disdain'.

To Geoff7, your points are pretty reasonable, but you confuse the attitutdes of a European culural elite with those of the European masses. There is no doubt, as I noted that there is an insidious anti-Americanism in many sections of educated European high society. Indeed, Engdahl is a perfect example of the type. However, to admit this admittedly high profile condescension with the European zeitgeist is wrong. Barack Obama just received a rapturous reception in several European countries. Bill Clinton was similarly received in Ireland and the UK. The same can be said of Reagan and Kennedy, both of whom were greeted with huge outpourings of enthusiasm during visits to Europe. How can you reconcile this reality with your perception of mass anti-American sentiment in Europe?

Europeans support Obama because he promises to move America further away from Americanism. (Obviously when we say Europeans are anti-American we don't believe they dislike the _soil_ of America, or the DNA of the people there-in.)

fsilber:

Europeans support Obama because he promises to move America further away from Americanism.

This statement only has validity if you choose to conflate the policies of the Bush years with "Americanism". It looks like a majority of Americans feel the same way; are they too guilty of anti-American prejudice merely because they think the country has been on the wrong ath over the past few years?

Actually Geof, if you could take time to look back at what US politicians and medias said about the European countries who opposed the sanctioning of the Irak war by a UN vote, what was said went far beyond 'Old Europe'

Here are a few words used at the time, please feel free to Google them:

Axis of Weasels

Freedom fries

Ungratefull....

kind words indeed.

Einhard:

fsilber:

Europeans support Obama because he promises to move America further away from Americanism.

This statement only has validity if you choose to conflate the policies of the Bush years with "Americanism". It looks like a majority of Americans feel the same way; are they too guilty of anti-American prejudice merely because they think the country has been on the wrong path over the past few years?

Not for that reason, but I would consider them opponents of Americanism if they believe the country has been on the wrong path for the past 200 years. I would put into that category anyone who condemns conservatives for persevering in the religious and social views that have _always_ characterized America. (I'll make an exception for those once-common traits which even conservative spokesmen oppose, such as white-supremacy and antisemitism.)

The economic disasters and troubling Iraq war will likely cause Obama to win with a small majority of the popular vote (55% would be enough to cause an electoral college landslide). In the current crisis this may be necessary, it pains me to say; though I despise the politics of the "left-of-center" (and consider Joe Biden to be an especially irritating *sshole), I must admit that Obama does seem to have been by far the most intelligent among the primaries' candidates of either party.

But I believe that most of Obama's most ardent supporters do hold people like me in contempt for my social views, and people like me aren't going to be one bit more pro-Europe to hear that Europeans are climbing on the Obama bandwagon. An Obama presidency may be more pro-Europe, and it may result in Europe becoming more pro-American, but it's going to do absolutely nothing to stem growing anti-European feelings (for the reasons I stated earlier) among Americans like me.