If Philip Roth is all American letters has to hang its hat on, then we are in deep trouble.

Roth is a terrible writer. His books consist mostly of long-winded, leaden exposition, with few vivid or riveting scenes. If you don’t believe me, try “American Pastoral,” one of his most vaunted books. There are a couple of good scenes in there, involving a young female terrorist, Rita Cohen. Otherwise, it’s page after page of exposition recounting the life of a boring, self-pitying upper-bourgeois male. Roth buries his lead and misplaces his sympathies. The terrorists are the only interesting people in that book, and he treats them like villains.

This signals a deeper problem with Roth, though: He’s just way too politically reactionary ever to get a Nobel Prize. The subtext of “American Pastoral” is that the protagonist wasn’t strict and authoritarian enough with his daughter, and this is why she became (God forbid) a leftist radical. The Nobel committee, having picked Elfriede Jellinek, is unlikely to endorse this patriarchal crap. Or look at his most popular book, “The Plot against America.” The premise there is that it would require a historically implausible FOREIGN conspiracy to turn the US into a fascist country, whereas the entire world has watched over the past few years while the US has accomplished this feat quite successfully without German help. American authors in general have a far rosier view of American society than foreigners do; more importantly, they have a rosier view of American society than GOOD foreign writers have of their own societies. Patriotism is one of the main symptoms of American provincialism, and to this American writers, alas, are not immune.

Mr. Clean:

The premise there is that it would require a historically implausible FOREIGN conspiracy to turn the US into a fascist country, whereas the entire world has watched over the past few years while the US has accomplished this feat quite successfully without German help. American authors in general have a far rosier view of American society than foreigners do; more importantly, they have a rosier view of American society than GOOD foreign writers have of their own societies. one.

I think most foreigners have a far rosier view of American society than you do. America isn't a facist society. To suggest it is demeans the memory of the millions who suffered and died under truely facist societies in the 20th century.

Sorry, Einhard, but you're not keeping up with developments. The standard definition of fascism is state capitalism + authoritarian political rule. We've had authoritarian political rule arguably since the breakdown of the electoral system in 2000 and at the latest since the USA Patriot Act. As for state capitalism, we have that as of a couple of weeks ago. Please read the following article from "The Nation" and get back to me when you've done your homework.

(P.S. Even if the US hasn't entered full-fledged fascism yet, it's getting close, and it did it all on its own; it didn't need to be blackmailed into it, as in Roth's preposterous novel).

(P.P.S. The US has killed 2.5 million people in Iraq. Who honors their memory?).

With George Bush's approval, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson has tripped across a line of historic dimension. Two less likely agents of change we have seldom seen, but in executing the financial putsch on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, they have taken America to a new place.

In the early decades of the twentieth century Italy went there when Benito Mussolini initiated his version of state capitalism. He was followed in Germany by Adolf Hitler and national socialism. Both were able to bring about a significant increase in prosperity, however repugnant their other teachings and practices.

Though the particular arrangements may vary from one nation to another, under state capitalism government is the senior partner in the economy. That is a different arrangement from tax breaks, tax shelters, tax subsidies, tax-exempt bonds, low-interest loans, tariff protection or the kind of parasitical finagling that made George W. Bush rich. Under state capitalism, the economy is manipulated to meet government set goals. Under state capitalism, Washington rules.

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(P.P.S. The US has killed 2.5 million people in Iraq. Who honors their memory?).

Wow. I want the time I spent reading your posts back.

I had thought that, by this point, even The Nation readers had abandoned this canard. Can't wait for the latest epidemiological hack study [it must be due in a few weeks with the election upcoming] stating matter of factly that George Bush has personally drunk the blood of 7.35 million Iraqi children.

I thought the American Pastoral was a gussied up screed against interfaith marriage- that a Jewish golden boy and a Catholic beauty queen would be too distant from one another to fabricate a nurturing environment for a child who will never be as great as her parents. If this is so, it suggests that Roth ascribes far more to our ingrained identity than he ever would admit.

Anyway, it really isn't that great of a book and Roth is prolific and kinda smart, but he's incisive rather than insightful, and he is guilty of precisely the insularity that the Nobel guy is dercrying.

Screw Roth. Give the Nobel to Bob Dylan.

Geoff7:

(P.P.S. The US has killed 2.5 million people in Iraq. Who honors their memory?).

Wow. I want the time I spent reading your posts back.

I had thought that, by this point, even The Nation readers had abandoned this canard.

It's analogous to the catachism that society is to blame for crime. (It is, but not in the way they have in mind. For example, society is to blame for crime to the extent that private citizens give money to muggers in lieu of shooting them.)

Have you been arrested for voicing your opposition to the current administration yet Mr. Clean? Have the offices of The Nation been closed and its editor arrested for publishing such an article? Didn't think so. Have you the opportunity to vote in free elections this Novemeber? Thought so. So spare me your armchair BS about a facist America.

There's another poster I read today, Kali I think his name was, who mentioned he was a Holocaust survivor. Maybe you should go and regale him with your experiences in modern America and see what kind of shrift you'd get.

As for doing my homework. Please. You claim America is a facist society, accuse me of ignorance when I call you on it, and then admit that maybe America isn't fully facist afterall. Perhaps you should do your homework. First look up the word hyperbole, and then maybe read 1984, followed by an account of Europe in the 30s and 40s. Perhaps then you won't be so blase about undermining the true horrors of facism by flinging the term about in such an indiscriminate fashion.

Einhard,

The Holocaust is not an essential feature of fascism. The Holocaust resulted from the obsessions of one particular fascist leader, but you can have fascism without having the Holocaust. Mussolini pioneered fascism, and he didn't plan the Holocaust and only reluctantly cooperated with Hitler's implementation of it. So you're on the wrong track entirely.

In any case, my point was to critique Roth's novel. Have you read it? In Roth's novel, the U.S. also does not become fully fascist . . . what Roth represents is an American society on the trajectory towards fascism, and this is what caused the book to resonate with readers living through the Bush administration. The problem is: In Roth's novel America's development towards fascism is the result of a plot AGAINST America, a German conspiracy to hold the president's child hostage (yes, I know this is absurd), whereas the current development towards fascism is the result of a plot WITHIN America. So no, America is not fully fascist yet, but it's getting there (curtailed civil liberties, a more than dubious "democratic" process, intense nationalism, wars of aggression, torture, internment camps, and now the emergence of state capitalism, the single most important defining feature of fascism). My point is simply that Roth's patriotism blinded him to the nature of this process and caused him to scapegoat foreigners. Not exactly a strong argument for giving him a Nobel Prize.

Obviously the Holocaust is not a central element of Fascism or we would have had such atrocities committed in Italy and Spain also. But the Holocaust was a central element of the most powerful fascist society of the 20th century, and to survive it was to survive fascism. You can play semantics all you want, it doesn't change the facts.

As to the Fascist States of America as you are likely wont to call it, there is simply no such thing. In a few weeks time, Americans will have the opportunity to turn the policies of GWB on their head. You've twice cited what Fascism is in an attempt to prove your point. By your standard therefore, I've conclusively proven that America cannot be a Fascist society. Such states simply do not "do" democracy.

As for civil liberties, wire tapping and the interception of communications are far more prevalent in Europe than in America. Considering many European nations have begun intervening in their financial markets, nationalising banks etc, they too should be well on the road to Fascism. By your standard that is.

Mr. Clean, Basically, your interpretation of Fascism is basically socialism. Gov't interference in business = Fascism is what your really getting at. Which is a complete distortion of the accepted view of Fascism. I believe what you describe most closely resembles socialism, or possibly, when taking the political part of your equation into consideration, an Oligarchy.

The most accepted view has more to do with Political power than with the economy when discussing Fascism. The main signs of Fascism include:

1. Nationalism- A surge in National pride. America was guilty of this after 9-11, but we have quickly returned to our roots questioning our gov't, and the actions it chooses to take.

2. No elections, or fake elections. Bush vs. Gore does not apply, because the two went through the legally elected Judicial process, and it was determined that Bush won. In Contrast Stalin doctored results to give himself 99% of the vote, and killed anybody who argued.

3. Isolationism- Liberals want to stay out of foreign Affairs, Republicans want to keep out Illegals. Both have their own Isolation demons, but neither have become a real risk at this time.

There are more, but these three are the big ones.

Now, Oligarchy, that might well describe America Controlled by the Uppercrust of society sometimes associated with big business but not always.

1. Both Obama and McCain are Millionaires. Our house and senate are controlled mostly by the wealthy.

2. Our nation allows big businesses to make donations, and furthermore allows their employees and CEO's to make sizeable donations.

3. A poor man or even middle class person could never run for President or Senate, because the costs would be too great to compete with the wealthy.

4. The two Elite parties in our nation are the only two with a chance. Third party candidates cannot raise enough money to defeat the two wealthy parties that cater to special interest.

Oligarchy yes. Fascism no. Should we be ashamed? Yes. Are we Nazi's? No.