(possibly a paraphrase of somebody else's quote)

What would be the VISIBLE difference in a Universe where "God gives us free will to do evil" and "the world, corrupted by Sin, is plagued by natural disasters"....

and a Universe where God doesn't exist or doesn't care?

happyatheist:

In the latter universe, there would be a whole lot less dumb-ass conversations going on...

Not sure you didn't do the OPPOSITE of what you intended, happ....

since that would logically mean, since we DO have a lot of dumb-ass conversations, there is a God!

LOL

I've tried to make that argument here a few times, but nobody will take me seriously.

;-)

Reptilicus:

(possibly a paraphrase of somebody else's quote)

What would be the VISIBLE difference in a Universe where "God gives us free will to do evil" and "the world, corrupted by Sin, is plagued by natural disasters"....

and a Universe where God doesn't exist or doesn't care?

Life.

Well, I was speaking more pointedly to the endless rounds of my god is better than your god, god says we're supposed to kill homosexuals, bleeding statues and parting seas etc.

Although I suppose there will always be those dumb-asses who will see Paul Newman's face on the grilled cheese sandwich instead of Jesus'...

"What would be the VISIBLE difference in a Universe where "God gives us free will to do evil" and "the world, corrupted by Sin, is plagued by natural disasters"...."

=== God endows us (all mankind) with volition to do evil acts as well as good acts, as far as acts go in and of themselves. This is how the earth was first created. Now, man is devoid of a Spiritual Nature until Born Again as Gifted by God with Faith in Jesus Christ. He is Spiritually Dead and cannot please God Who is Spirit because he DID exercise his will to do evil in direct contravention of the single rule God laid out for him..

The visible difference is that man, before the fall enjoyed many supernatural protections and probably abilities that were withdrawn after The Fall. The visible difference is that an earthquake might happen back then before the fall, but it just wouldn't hurt anyone. ===

and a Universe where God doesn't exist or doesn't care?

=== There can be no Universe without God the Creator. So, what doesn't exist can't be seen. With an uninvolved God, you don't have predestination, I suppose. There certainly isn't going to be any mercy or supernatural rescue (miracles).

Dd

"Now, man is devoid of a Spiritual Nature until Born Again as Gifted by God with Faith in Jesus Christ."

Then why not create Jesus first so that all men could be born again immediately instead of waiting several millenia to do so?

"The visible difference is that an earthquake might happen back then before the fall, but it just wouldn't hurt anyone."

Possibly, back then, the fact that there just weren't that many people, they lived in caves and grass huts and had no technological infrastructure is predominantly the reason why no-one got hurt in an earthquake?

I am enjoying a lazy Sunday afternoon in this sun drenched breadbasket of a central valley in which I live. Life has not always been sunny; there have been lean and mean times. Just for the record, HAP happens to be my initials and I have been called that for many years. I am reminded of a poem by Thomas Hardy: Link to Hardy Poem

I am inexpert on alternate universes. I struggle to understand this one.

"Now, man is devoid of a Spiritual Nature until Born Again as Gifted by God with Faith in Jesus Christ."

Then why not create Jesus first so that all men could be born again immediately instead of waiting several millenia to do so?

=== Jesus would be the climax in history. The Book of Reality is about Him. Reality will demonstrate for all time and space the Centrality of The Word of God, Jesus Christ, God Almighty, Only Begotten Son of The Father, AKA Son of Man, AKA Son of David, Messiah, Savior, Rose of Sharon, Lion of Judah, God With Us, Redeemer, etc. All glorious names. Hey, maybe God made Space-time because it is the only medium from which one can harvest Glory.

The Glory is in the struggle, the struggle is in the process. The identity of Individuals, myriad, innumerable and each unique would be facilitated by apparent process.

Remember, God from His persepctive of being eternal and in all time past, present and future, Who claims for Himself the Title of the actual Beginning and the End did, in fact create these born agains in an instant in the beginning before the foundation of the world. It just doesn't seem so instantaneous to us, but to God, it is a done deed. Good Question. Or perhaps an instinctually astute observation. ===.

"The visible difference is that an earthquake might happen back then before the fall, but it just wouldn't hurt anyone."

Possibly, back then, the fact that there just weren't that many people, they lived in caves and grass huts and had no technological infrastructure is predominantly the reason why no-one got hurt in an earthquake?

=== Caves are usually less than ideal places to be during an earthquake. Considering that Man was placed in a specially protected Garden, I don't think there was need for a cave or a hut or even clothes....

Dd

If God was not interested in His Creation beyond inception and instigation there could certainly not be anything like Evillusion.

Dd

You and many of us by rights should have perished in some car wreck by now, save for your guardian angel. Or some horrible disease.

And Hitler probably would not have been fooled into making tragic decisions that brought down his evil global attack force.

Actually, the suggestible answers are endless, but time is not.

For sure. In history we have Merengo, even Austerlitz, Malo-Yaroslavets, the surender of the Austrians at Ulm.... That's before we even get away from Napolean's time! Hitler's time we had Midway, Stalingrad and Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Patton's prayer.

Dd