"But when it comes to Scientology, there's a hunger for the negative. I suspect that's because Scientology evinces an acute case of what Freud called the narcissism of small differences: We're made most uncomfortable by that which is most like us. And everything of which Scientology is accused is an exaggerated form of what more "normal" religions do."

That's not really the case. Scientology was formed around a business model. At a certain point Hubbard realized the "religion angle" would grant them protection under the first amendment and allow them to call anyone a bigot who opposed what they were doing. They made it enough like a religion so that they could pretend that they are one. When looking at the cult it is important to note the DIFFERENCE from other religions, not the similarities.

The people who are anti-scientology aren't that way because of the religious content. They are anti-scientology because they can't accomplish what they claim, they charge huge amounts of money for what they claim, they take advantage of the weak (we called it "finding their ruin" when I was a member). When you take that away what is left? Not much-- a version of 1950's style psychotherapy, some folksy wisdon on dealing with life, and a strange cosmology.

This is a complex subject but in the end it is exactly what it seems to be-- a strange little cult that over values money, movie stars and L.Ron Hubbard, lies about it's membership and tries to extract as much money as it can from it's followers.

But can any religion accomplish what they claim? Does belief in Jesus Christ really give you a one-way ticket to heaven? Does blowing oneself up in a suicid bombing really lead to the acquisition of 72 black eyed virgins? Do you really come back as a slug in the next life if you are a bad person in this life?

How many people pay huge sums of money for Jenny Craig, Atkins, South Beach and never lose a pound (and maybe even gain a few)? How many are then steered into liposuction, gastric by-bass, the lap band or maybe even hypnosis or accupuncture?

As with anything else, a person gets out of anything exactly whatever it is they need to get out of it. And if they don't get that, then they leave it to try something else. Scientology isn't any different.

...if you're too dumb, or dishonest, to make honest or accurate distinctions about religions, cults, dietary fads, and plastic surgery.

You're really making quite a fool of yourself...

That scientology is nothing more than a business venture, a pyramid scheme, a scam (as opposed to or in addition to being a religion/cult), the comparison of the unsubtantiated claims and abuses of other self help/self improvement items, such as diets and other weight reduction techniques, is a valid comparison.

If scientology is a religion/cult, does it deliver any less than what other religions/cults deliver? If scientology is a (self help) business, does it deliver any less than what other (self help) businesses deliver?

You really aren't even attempting to see anything other than something negative and irrelevant, are you? What if I said Horus is a lovely, intelligent and conscientious person. Would you have a problem with that?

since when did diet and weight reduction and "self help" businesses encourage its members to dissconnect from people they love, because those people have a critical view of their business........

how can you compare weight watchers(for example, a diet reduction) to scientology,........weight watchers did not tell someone not to have any contact with their father anymore(for example) because the father criticed weight watchers......

when was the last time a self help group infiltrated the US government to purge any documents showing a self help group in any bad light(operation snow white, scientology infiltrates US government)

i could go on and on

as for comparing to religions ,i understand what your trying to say with regards to claimed promises, but most other religions expect you to have faith.

the difference is scientology claims to be a SCIENTIFIC method of clearing the spirit, whereas other religions just expect faith and dont prove themselves through scientific methods. so if you go into scientologies promises of clearing the spirit(thetans) through its claimed, scientific methods, and spend a lot of money to do it and end up not getting what was told at the beginning, then scientology is lying about what it claims to be able to do.

most religions just expect you to have faith. they dont expect to prove in this life scientifically that god exists, etc

I didn't actually compare Weight Watchers...Weight Watchers is one of the few that seems to work moderately well.

My experience with scientology does not include any instance of the scientologist being required to disconnect from family, friends or community. My brother is a scientologist, everyone else in the family thinks it's stupid, demeaning and obnoxious and no-one keeps any of that bottled up. (As my other brother says to him - "quit sending me these stupid f*cking pamphlets about quitting drugs and drinking. If you keep doing it, I'll kick you ass, you f*cking idiot.") At no time in his 24 years of being a scientologist has he ever been required to disconnect...and he hasn't. I just got a lovely letter from him (and a pamphlet about the 20 commandments) a few months ago. I also get the occasional chatty letter from his wife and daughter.

However, I would note that it is quite typical of substance abuse programs (and is just beginning to be seen in other self help programs, such as weight loss - some of the newest fat camps are quite militant in their tactics), to recommend that the abuser stay away from the people, places and things that were associated with their substance abuse in order to remove the underlying reasons/triggers for the abuse (e.g. if I want to quit smoking I should stop going places where people smoke and stop hanging out with smokers, even if they are my freinds).

If a new recruit to scientology is getting flack from his friends and relatives for being a scientologist, I can see it being suggested that they remove themselves from that negativity if it is causing undue stress to the recruit, although I have not, personally, been witness to that. In the same way that people go to monasteries or retreats to immerse themselves totally unhindered in something, it may sometimes be useful for scientologists to do the same.

And if the US government can be infiltrated by a bunch of nitwit yahoos like the scientologists then we're all in a heap of trouble. These people aren't big into education, ya know, it's ALL science fiction with them, not fact. Why do you think they have these accidental deaths at their facilities? Because they have no education in human bodily needs and functions. They aren't real bright and are often also lacking in simple common sense. I think the claims of influence and infiltration are widely exagerated in order to make them appear bigger and badder than they are. (Cripes! My brother doesn't even know how to use a computer, and from the sounds of it, neither do any of the other geniuses he works with.)

As for the faith vs. science argument, the scientologist still has to have faith that he/she is infested with thetans before they can agree to the "science" of thetan removal. And, if I recall correctly, the wording in all of their documents is very specifically sorted to sound scientific, but not make any actual scientific claims that would have to be backed up by FDA approval. They keep it all within the same realm as nutritional supplements. Nice and blurry. It looks like it could be a specific claim, but it's not really, not legally. (Of course the papers they make their members sign are completely legally binding, but no-one reads those before they sign on the dotted line.)

But what I was responding to was the initial poster's idea that scientology was really perpetrating a fraud against it's followers. And that may be so, but is that fraud - either spiritually or financially - any bigger, any different from the millions of other frauds perpetrated against needy people of all stripes from smokers to fatties to druggies to uglies to the spiritually disposessed?

Read Dianetics-- the first book of Scientology. He promises among many other things perfect vision, IQ raised one point per hour of therapy, no colds, no asthma, computer like mind, longer life, no morning sickness during pregnancy. He then says that he has tested it on over 270 people and it works consistently. This is in the real world and not open to vague interpretation but none of it happens. The cult then charges huge amounts of money to get to this state (clear) which is never achieved. This is not like Jenny Craig where it CAN happen or other religions that give you promises for the after life. It is more like selling someone a dishwasher that won't wash dishes, which is probably why Hubbard was sentenced to four years in jail for fraud in France.

For your information, I too am a happy atheist. But some religions do more good for society and the individual practicing them than others.

I couldn't agree with you more.

It delivers far less than most. They charge more than most, perhaps all. They go after society's most vulnerable. They get away with it through the influence of movie stars, the willingness to spend their money on high priced lawyers while paying their staff, at times, nothing, and by calling those who would challenge them bigots. Read about the lawsuit following Time Magazine's article "The Cult of Greed and Power". Read about Paulette Cooper. Actually, read about anything you desire, both sides if you like. They have a long and ugly history, balanced by followers who say that Scientology has done a lot for them. Mostly, it has given them a peer group, hope and a misguided notion that they are saving the world. It doesn't give much more.

Right on the mark.

testing something on 270 people is not a large enough sample to make any claim at all.

And isn't the promise that you have to achieve a specified state of mind BEFORE you will see any of those changes? I can't remember all the details, but I seem to recall that all these improvements hinge on achieving a particular mindset (clear). If one nevers sees these improvements, then that means they haven't acheived the necessary mindset to see the improvements. Case closed, pilot error, not a problem with the airplane.

He's selling you a dishwasher that claims it will produce clean dishes if you fill up the sink, put the dishes in the sink and wash them by hand. Yes, he is selling you a dishwasher that doesn't wash dishes, but the spiritually needy stop at "dishwasher" and don't read the rest of the description of what the dishwasher actually does and doesn't do.

It's the oldest trick in the book. Right up there with "no purchase necessary" in print so small outside of the text box that the little old ladies don't know that they don't have to buy $50 worth of crappy magazines to be entered in the sweepstakes.

With a family member in the cult, I can see that you would want to look at it in the best way possible. Unfortunately it is worse than you think. Fortunately, most scientologists eventually figure that out for themselves and leave. Your brother will likely become one of the ones who leave.

There is not one person who remains in the local office of the cult today, who was there when I started-- and we had 120 full time staff. Everyone eventually left.

When I was in the cult I was ordered to phone a friend and ask him to, "Grant me beingness as a Scientologist". They thought he was the suppressive person who was giving me the bad thoughts about their cult. My friend valued my friendship and stopped criticising or the next step would have been disconnection. I am not making this up.

Every religion has a long and ugly history. Born again christians prey on drug addicts and poor people too, no-one seems to have a problem with them or with people who tell their tragic tales of being saved from a life of crime and misery by the holy word of Jesus.

"Mostly, it has given them a peer group, hope and a misguided notion that they are saving the world. It doesn't give much more."

And what more do most people actually want out of life? THAT is exactly what most people are looking for and if they find it, wherever they find it, then they're set.

Good analogy to dishwasher and everything else. I don't think he tried Scientology out on 270 people. I don't think he tried it out on anybody. Where did the 270 people go? Where are the records of his experiments? Why did he introduce a young woman in L.A. years later as the first clear (I could find her name on the internet if I wanted to)? Why was John McMaster later called the first clear? I suspect the book was made up as he went along.