Damn, Weisberg, what's the hurry?

It's not like white Christians are going to be around for more than 50-60 years anyway.

We are going to be a minority in the very country we created in my lifetime.

Y'all keep pimping Mexican immigration to ethnically cleanse us sayin' how they will do the work we won't do and how we need them to take care of us in our old age. I think we know what's going on here.

Y'all want us out of this country and we just aren't dying fast enough. Why you want us to die out so soon? Arre our babies really that evil? Mexicans are set to explode the population of this country by 135 million in 30-40 years, yet you are still beating on white Christians to stop making babies.

Your brother Noel Ignatiev says we are evil and ought to diasppear.

Your sister Susan Sontag calls us white Christians a "cancer on the human race".

Why all the hating? What did we ever do to you but take y'all in when you couldn't get along with your neighbors in Russia and y'all ran off?

Nobody is beating on white Christians to stop making babies. Free choice means a woman right to chose what she is doing with her body. If you want fewer miscarriages and more babies to survive once they are born, why don't you work towards health care coverage for all pregnant women and their babies?

Most Mexicans are Christian. Just like I assume you do, they recognize Jesus as their savior. I am confused with your views about faith. What sort of Christian views his religion as a race instead of a faith???? Are you among those who actually think Jesus spoke English? And since you're using 19nth century definition of "race", Mexicans are considered Caucasians, i.e. white.

Susan Sontag was referring to the Christian right and their attempt to control the politics of this country as well as everyone's private behavior. In that capacity, the Christian right is authoritarian, anti-democratic, and yes,it is a threat to the American way of life. Luckily, the overwhelming majority of Christians are moderate and they aren't out to coercively impose their views on their fellow citizens... (could it be because they actually have read the New Testament and believe in Jesus' message of love and tolerance while the Christian right is stuck in Leviticus?)

could it be because they actually have read the New Testament and believe in Jesus' message of love and tolerance while the Christian right is stuck in Leviticus?

I see what you're saying, but frankly I don't know where the Christian right is coming from. But if you're right, they certainly appear to pick and choose what parts of Leviticus to get all hot and bothered about. If they were truly consistent, they would be screaming as loudly about stopping people from eating shellfish as they are about stopping abortion or gay rights. Hypocrites.

Ok, b0nnylass after my whir of muck based posting (which I deleted btw) in response to one of your posts, I see your point. We're getting a little faithbased here but there is a time to say, "Wait that's not the Christianity I learned". I was so appalled at what I saw within the realms of my faith that I ran from it. I went out and bought a Tanakh and a copy of the Quran also an encyclopedia of World Religions believing that the Jesus I knew wouldn't chop my eyes out for wanting to know about other humans beliefs. I read a little of each copy easily available in my country, but quickly discovered that the Tanakh seems to be an extended version of the Old Testament and the Quran gave no reference on how to create an IED or "kill the rest of the world" I didn't read all of them - it's just no fun to read the texts when there is no one to discuss them. I don't want to convert to another faith either because as I understand my own I like it. Execution of said faith well, that's tricky.

I don't consider myself a person of great faith because I've kinda been forced to see what I believe through trial and error. Who knows? Maybe that makes me a Thomasonian Christian. I really wish I'd quit the trial and error thing, and maybe anyone whose read my posts does too.

I see your point with immigration, are these really Christians that want to take the kindergartners scoop them up on buses and fast-track them across the border with maybe a peanut butter sandwich and a carton of milk, and say bye-bye Carlitos? Or do we need to hush the hype and get a real solution to the problems that face us?

Both candidates seem to want do something to reverse the flow of things, but if we drag out the freaking coat hangers and scary pictures again and nit pick irrelevant garbage like Hillary's pant-suit and Palin's glasses -we're not ever going to get to point.

This country's government is of the people by the people and for the people. Well, guess what? We're the people! Even me, despite what I may have said previously so I tune in to Cspan and see that while government is trying to make decisions the legislators have a couple of reams of typed paper to filter through while their making their points and I think to myself; straight talk has it's place and so does change we can believe.

Will the news magazines and the journalists please, please tell us something relevant?

"Free choice means a woman right to chose what she is doing with her body."

Kati,

When I read this disingenuous slogan, I want to scream. I don't know if you're:

1.) stupid, or 2.) have completely conned yourself, or 3.) know better but are trying to con others so you can just sort of do what you want to do if some day you end up with an unwanted baby in the womb. I suppose it's mostly 2 with a large dose of 3.

It is not about a woman's body, or a woman's choice about her body. We are not talking about a woman's right to cut off her big toe off, dye her hair, get a tattoo, have sex, or drink whiskey. If it was only that simple!

No wonder people rattle on that anti-abortion types are just retrograde women haters who hate sex and want to keep women on a leash. Gee. What's the problem? We're just talking about "choice," right? Just some "choice" hanging in the ether somewhere, a choice which has zero impact on anyone but the woman making it. What's the big controversery about any way?

Bullshit.

We are talking about a woman having the right to kill another person, with another body. You do know about the birds and bees, don't you Kati? You do know that when a woman gets a big swollen belly that there is an actual human being, a baby, in there, don't you? And to "terminate the pregnancy" means to kill that baby which is in there, right?

I am for abortion rights as they are currently written into law. But I hate, am disgusted by, most abortions. I don't know exactly when that human life becomes a human being, but certainly at some point in the second trimester, and when it hits that point the average abortion is murder for the sake of expediency.

At all stages of an abortion human life is killed. Yes, "killed," not "terminated."

The pro-lifers have clean hands. The pro-abortion right types are ultimately arguing for the right to kill. We have an enormous burden on us, not the pro-choicers. So, it behooves those of us who believe that abortions are tragic, verging on murder, but which should be legal, to show some seriousness about what we are standing up for.

"Free choice means a woman right to chose what she is doing with her body." Oh brother. Drop the '70s Steinem nonsense. It is that kind of appallingly amoral, selfish, callous position on abortion which keeps it such a hot topic. Abortion is not to be used as a tool in the war between the sexes.

When I say I am "pro-choice" I finish the whole sentence. I say, "I am for the right of a woman to kill the unborn baby in her womb up through the first trimester." Do you have the guts to actually be honest with what you're standing up for?

Early Bird, when you get yourself a womb and experience the joys and trauma of pregnancy and motherhood then you may speak your piece. I am a mother and grandmother. Each time I was pregnant the fetus was a part of me. It survived through my body and if I had died, it would have died too. Giving birth was an experience of being split in two. In a way it is a loss of a part of yourself, but when you hold that new separate being in your arm, it's a miracle and it makes it all worth while.

No, the likes of you don't have the right to legislate my womb. And how dare the Republican platform advocate the banning of abortions even in case of rapes and incest? What does it mean to force a victim of rape and a double victim of rape and incest (all parent/child incest is rape of course) to carry the criminal's fetus for nine months and be reminded of the rape day and night. It would mean being raped over and over again.

And why are you so chicken (earlybird?) to not address my question about preventing miscarriages and infant mortality? If you really cared about life wouldn't you want women who are pregnant by choice to be able to carry their pregnancies full term, and wouldn't you want to give all newborns access to the medical care they need?. You speak so heatedly about life but I wonder if you even love children. I don't know if you have any but the rude tone of your post makes me suspect that you are an authoritarian type of person rather than a nurturing one, and I sure wouldn't want you for my father.

Earlybird:

PS: is there a war between the sexes? Not in my experience...

My God, you're old enough to be a grandmother and you still have the moral reasoning of a pre-teen? That's terrifying.

And you actually had the balls - excuse the pun - to drag out this old trope:

"Early Bird, when you get yourself a womb and experience the joys and trauma of pregnancy and motherhood then you may speak your piece."

Sorry honey, but I'll speak my piece about killing fetuses any time I want to, womb or no womb. And I'll even let you speak your piece about rape even though you don't have male genitalia. I'll even let you speak your piece about war, even if you've never served in uniform, okay? I'll treat you like a member of the human race.

And you call me authoritarian?!

Yes. I get real authoritarian about a lot of things. I get authoritarian about not allowing men the choice to beat their wives or the choice to molest children. I get authoritarian about not allowing people the choice to kill their next door neighbors for being noisy. I get authoritarian about not allowing people the choice to torture animals. And on and on.

And I get authoritarian about not allowing women to kill their perfectly healthy fetuses in the womb.

Again, I am "pro-abortion rights as they currently exist," not some airy fairy, dishonest "pro-choicer." Any way you slice it, abortion is about killing. You don't have the guts to talk about it.

It seems to me that if you can't discuss your opinions without being rude then you might lack self confidence?

Why would being pro-choice imply a war between the sexes? There are plenty of pro-choice men and plenty of pro-life women.

Please give some thought to the following: if you are trying to persuade someone of the rightfulness of your position, don't insult them. When you insult someone all you accomplish is to trigger in your respondent a like response and they stop taking anything you say seriously.

You're right Kati. But I get so pissed off at the whole basic lie at the bottom of first post, the fact that you will reduce the legal right to kill babies to some mere "choice," that I get angry. It's a dishonest statement to begin the whole discussion with.

Early Bird, it's not a lie, it's a matter of deeply held values, just as deeply held as yours are. So we'll never persuade each other and that's one of the reasons why pro-life and pro-choice should look to the things they agree on. Particularly to try to lower the rate of miscarriages and infant mortality in our country, and to strive to make sure that all pregnant women and children have access to health care. And to try to ensure affordable and safe day care because these days it takes two salaries to be able to support children, and so forth... there is so much that needs to be done right now to help children. So let's do it and table unresolved controversies for a while...

Take care,

kati