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Surge is working
by RANGER 82

Combat deaths in Iraq are at a new low as the military takes control of the Baghdad area. When Petraus reports that the surge is in fact working, the Democrats will say what? I would offer tthat it does not really matter as they are not interested in victory only political fodder.

Richardson wants immediate wothdrawal and Obama will talk to any rogue regime to prove that he is "worldly". Hillary (nice boobs) wants whatever is currently popular and the rest are irrelevent.

Re: Surge is working
by RML Returns

Surge is working for the US troops. Deaths of civilians is at an all time high.

I guess it all depends what you call success.

If you live in Iraq I suspect the surge works only when the troops are in your neighborhood. This is what we are hearing from the ground. But by all means, keep telling youself its working....it just makes the rest of the nation happier to see Bush go....."stay the course"...."hard work"...."do you think Im stupid".....yes of course is the answer to the last one....

Re: Surge is NOTworking
by P Wo

History shows us that every single July since the invasion , there have been fewer American deaths. So far from showing the surge a success, it shows a trend. Why is it cons are so easily fooled? pssttt.......(cause they only hear what they want to.)

Any anyway if cons were so worried about the deaths they would be getting OUR troops out of that gawd awful rat hole, called Iraq. I was gonna say, "try being more honest with yourselves", but then I realized THAT would be impossible for you cons. Delusional to the end.

Re: Surge is working
by Gerry Harold

Now we are told Rnger that we will be there for at least 2-4 years.

Is the Surge working?

Maybe in places but the net result is that the Maliki government has done absolutely nothing to advance anything that needs doing to make Iraq a functionin country.

US dearhs are down, that is good! Iraqi deaths are up and a recent poll says 70% of Iraqis believe the US presence is the problem.

Will it be a chaotic mess when we leave? YES!! Is it not a chaotic mess now??

The civil war needs to be waged, lets get out of the way!

Gerry

Didn't the entire Iraqi Gov just go on vacation for
by Time4CommonSense

4-5 weeks while we are losing American soldiers daily? So while the Iraqi Government Officials are vacationing we can expect to lose on average 2 or more Americans a day.

My understanding was that the surge was supposed to give the Iraqi Gov time for diplomacy not time off for a vacation while Americans are being lost daily! Are our leaders stupid or what?

"A new low", you mean Bush's polls?
by middleview

We have lost 400 soldiers since April of 2007. We lost 74 this month. While that is the lowest number in 2007, we lost 70 soldiers in November of 2006 and 31 in March of 06. The surge is bullshit. We have had more troops in Iraq at other times. Why is this surge any different? We used a different name for the operation (forward together was the last one) and it didn't work either.

<link>

Look at this chart and see if you can see a pattern that supports your claim that the surge is working.

Re: Didn't the entire Iraqi Gov just go on vacation for
by middleview
Do you really have to ask if our leaders are very smart? If the entire administration were to perish in an airplane disaster, it would double the average IQ of the republican party.....
Speaking of irrelevant. . .
by Wolfen

your post is a perfect example. Combat deaths of our troops are slightly lower than previously. Big stinking deal. We've managed to slightly control a small part of Baghdad by conpressing our forces into a small area. Meanwhile, the rest of the country has gone into the shitter.

Bush has effectively withdrawn our forces already by having them focus solely on the green zone and the oil pipelines. He might as well go all the way - except that would harm Haliburton and the Carlyle Group's bottom line.

Our troops are not protecting American or Iraqi interests. They're protecting the interests of BushCorp.

Re: Speaking of irrelevant. . .
by RML Returns

Cons didnt learn from Vietnam. The pattern is almost identical, right down to the surge which is simply an escalation made to hold the line in what is a failed policy.

Now if history continues to repeat (and we are looking at almost the same situation) then we have a situation where the present government is 100% dependent on the USA and lacks popular support. If this is true then the US leaving means the government collapses. Note that during Vietnam we saw the same insistence that the South Vietnamese government was the popular one with the people-I think we can agree that when it collapsed in less than a week this was an indication that what we were told was bullshite.

So if the cons are correct, we can leave and the freely elected Iraqi government will have no major issues-just local skirmishes with nutties. If it is true that the Iraqis feel that Makeki and company are just puppetts, we will see a quick demise as soon as US money and US blood are removed from the patient.

Re: Speaking of irrelevant. . .
by middleview

It turns out that the decline is more related to the weather. It is too hot for the terrorists to be too energetic. If you look at the chart you'll see that the casualty count is always lower in summer

<link>

Re: Surge is working
by EarlyBird

Tactically it's working for the time being. And that's great. But I see no significant change in the long-term strategic chances of success.

We can not sustain this surge. And in the mean time there has been virtually zero, nada, zilch, coming together of the Iraqis around the fledgling government, which still can't agree on how much to charge for parking tickets, let alone sort out all of deep and fundamentally divisive problems they have. They are fighting a civil war you know.

Having a stable, humane, decent, non-aggressive, self-managing Iraqi government that keeps its own peace is the definition of success in Iraq. We arent' even vaguely, kinda, a tiny bit close to that.

The only thing keeping them from becoming Cambodia is the American military presence, one which we simply can not sustain. We are breaking our excellent, but small, military.

Ranger, assuming you are or were a US Ranger, thanks a million for your service. But let's get real. I'm sure our soldiers and General Petraeus are just as devoted to the fight as were the soldiers at the Alamo. But the guys at the Alamo were simply overwhelmed by realities.

Our mission in Iraq is simply becoming swamped by reality. Let's withdraw, let the poor country become a bloodbath, yes with the understanding that we'll have to be "back there in a handful of years," and regroup and recoup. In the mean time, let Iraq keep the Iranians and Arabs busy dealing with the mess.

At some point stick-toitiveness becomes suicide.

Re: Surge is working
by RANGER 82
Why do liberal attempts to speak "strategically" always come up short.? We are in Iraq due to liberal shortcomings just as we were in Vietnam. We allowed millions to die in Cambodia and Rwanda becasuse of a lack of "strategic" interest. Radfical islamists must be dealt with, that does not mean negotiating them away. Abandoning Iraq will begin the restoration of the Caliphate.It took 1500 years to destroy the first one.
Re: Surge is working
by middleview

at least the guys at the Alamo were fighting for something they had an investment in. It was a fight for their own homes. Our guys in Iraq are fighting for someone else's homes and freedom and it doesn't look like they want to be troubled to help. The 5 Americans kidnapped and murdered earlier this year might have been killed with help from the local Iraqi police.

If we want to keep our guys in Iraq, then let's move our forces to the border and keep the Iranians and Syrians out and when the Iraqis are done killing each other they can work on building a society. In the mean time, we can't help them learn to live together. That is up to them to figure out.

Re: Surge is working
by Sickofleft

The surge is actually working as two New York Times columinist (no freinds of the administration) pointed out in a column earlier this week which I will paste below. Its not that it isn't a sound strategy because it is, (it would have been nicer three years ago) but its a question of time. Now that they are getting a semblance of security in the capital a political solution seems workable ( of course the Iraqi legislature took this moment to,,,, ummmmm go on vacation??) but will the American people have the patience to see this through? I don't think so I mean MSNBC tells me every day (as they have for the past year or more) that we have already lost.

Op-Ed Contributor

A War We Just Might Win By MICHAEL E. O’HANLON and KENNETH M. POLLACK

Washington

VIEWED from Iraq, where we just spent eight days meeting with American and Iraqi military and civilian personnel, the political debate in Washington is surreal. The Bush administration has over four years lost essentially all credibility. Yet now the administration’s critics, in part as a result, seem unaware of the significant changes taking place.

Here is the most important thing Americans need to understand: We are finally getting somewhere in Iraq, at least in military terms. As two analysts who have harshly criticized the Bush administration’s miserable handling of Iraq, we were surprised by the gains we saw and the potential to produce not necessarily “victory” but a sustainable stability that both we and the Iraqis could live with.

After the furnace-like heat, the first thing you notice when you land in Baghdad is the morale of our troops. In previous trips to Iraq we often found American troops angry and frustrated — many sensed they had the wrong strategy, were using the wrong tactics and were risking their lives in pursuit of an approach that could not work.

Today, morale is high. The soldiers and marines told us they feel that they now have a superb commander in Gen. David Petraeus; they are confident in his strategy, they see real results, and they feel now they have the numbers needed to make a real difference.

Everywhere, Army and Marine units were focused on securing the Iraqi population, working with Iraqi security units, creating new political and economic arrangements at the local level and providing basic services — electricity, fuel, clean water and sanitation — to the people. Yet in each place, operations had been appropriately tailored to the specific needs of the community. As a result, civilian fatality rates are down roughly a third since the surge began — though they remain very high, underscoring how much more still needs to be done.

In Ramadi, for example, we talked with an outstanding Marine captain whose company was living in harmony in a complex with a (largely Sunni) Iraqi police company and a (largely Shiite) Iraqi Army unit. He and his men had built an Arab-style living room, where he met with the local Sunni sheiks — all formerly allies of Al Qaeda and other jihadist groups — who were now competing to secure his friendship.

In Baghdad’s Ghazaliya neighborhood, which has seen some of the worst sectarian combat, we walked a street slowly coming back to life with stores and shoppers. The Sunni residents were unhappy with the nearby police checkpoint, where Shiite officers reportedly abused them, but they seemed genuinely happy with the American soldiers and a mostly Kurdish Iraqi Army company patrolling the street. The local Sunni militia even had agreed to confine itself to its compound once the Americans and Iraqi units arrived.

We traveled to the northern cities of Tal Afar and Mosul. This is an ethnically rich area, with large numbers of Sunni Arabs, Kurds and Turkmens. American troop levels in both cities now number only in the hundreds because the Iraqis have stepped up to the plate. Reliable police officers man the checkpoints in the cities, while Iraqi Army troops cover the countryside. A local mayor told us his greatest fear was an overly rapid American departure from Iraq. All across the country, the dependability of Iraqi security forces over the long term remains a major question mark.

But for now, things look much better than before. American advisers told us that many of the corrupt and sectarian Iraqi commanders who once infested the force have been removed. The American high command assesses that more than three-quarters of the Iraqi Army battalion commanders in Baghdad are now reliable partners (at least for as long as American forces remain in Iraq).

In addition, far more Iraqi units are well integrated in terms of ethnicity and religion. The Iraqi Army’s highly effective Third Infantry Division started out as overwhelmingly Kurdish in 2005. Today, it is 45 percent Shiite, 28 percent Kurdish, and 27 percent Sunni Arab.

In the past, few Iraqi units could do more than provide a few “jundis” (soldiers) to put a thin Iraqi face on largely American operations. Today, in only a few sectors did we find American commanders complaining that their Iraqi formations were useless — something that was the rule, not the exception, on a previous trip to Iraq in late 2005.

The additional American military formations brought in as part of the surge, General Petraeus’s determination to hold areas until they are truly secure before redeploying units, and the increasing competence of the Iraqis has had another critical effect: no more whack-a-mole, with insurgents popping back up after the Americans leave.

In war, sometimes it’s important to pick the right adversary, and in Iraq we seem to have done so. A major factor in the sudden change in American fortunes has been the outpouring of popular animus against Al Qaeda and other Salafist groups, as well as (to a lesser extent) against Moktada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army.

These groups have tried to impose Shariah law, brutalized average Iraqis to keep them in line, killed important local leaders and seized young women to marry off to their loyalists. The result has been that in the last six months Iraqis have begun to turn on the extremists and turn to the Americans for security and help. The most important and best-known example of this is in Anbar Province, which in less than six months has gone from the worst part of Iraq to the best (outside the Kurdish areas). Today the Sunni sheiks there are close to crippling Al Qaeda and its Salafist allies. Just a few months ago, American marines were fighting for every yard of Ramadi; last week we strolled down its streets without body armor.

Another surprise was how well the coalition’s new Embedded Provincial Reconstruction Teams are working. Wherever we found a fully staffed team, we also found local Iraqi leaders and businessmen cooperating with it to revive the local economy and build new political structures. Although much more needs to be done to create jobs, a new emphasis on microloans and small-scale projects was having some success where the previous aid programs often built white elephants.

In some places where we have failed to provide the civilian manpower to fill out the reconstruction teams, the surge has still allowed the military to fashion its own advisory groups from battalion, brigade and division staffs. We talked to dozens of military officers who before the war had known little about governance or business but were now ably immersing themselves in projects to provide the average Iraqi with a decent life.

Outside Baghdad, one of the biggest factors in the progress so far has been the efforts to decentralize power to the provinces and local governments. But more must be done. For example, the Iraqi National Police, which are controlled by the Interior Ministry, remain mostly a disaster. In response, many towns and neighborhoods are standing up local police forces, which generally prove more effective, less corrupt and less sectarian. The coalition has to force the warlords in Baghdad to allow the creation of neutral security forces beyond their control.

In the end, the situation in Iraq remains grave. In particular, we still face huge hurdles on the political front. Iraqi politicians of all stripes continue to dawdle and maneuver for position against one another when major steps towards reconciliation — or at least accommodation — are needed. This cannot continue indefinitely. Otherwise, once we begin to downsize, important communities may not feel committed to the status quo, and Iraqi security forces may splinter along ethnic and religious lines.

How much longer should American troops keep fighting and dying to build a new Iraq while Iraqi leaders fail to do their part? And how much longer can we wear down our forces in this mission? These haunting questions underscore the reality that the surge cannot go on forever. But there is enough good happening on the battlefields of Iraq today that Congress should plan on sustaining the effort at least into 2008.

Michael E. O’Hanlon is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. Kenneth M. Pollack is the director of research at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy at Brookings.

Re: Surge is working
by EarlyBird

I'm a "liberal?!" Hah! That's news to me, a lifetime registered Republican and passionate conservative (a real conservative, not the tribal Big Government Christianist Bushian "conservative") and US Air Force veteran.

You said the surge is working. I agree. But I pointed out that there is very little progress after more than 4 years that the we are succeeding in our long-term strategic goal in Iraq.

And you completely dodged my point about that the FACT that this mission is breaking the military, and that the surge can not be sustained.

You haven't breathed a word about strategy bub. Of course we can't negotiate away terrorists set on Kill. But we don't have to be sitting ducks for them either. The first thing you learned in Ranger school is that if one tactic doesn't work, you change and adapt. Wake up.

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