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Bristol's pregnancy DOES matter
by GG313

I think it's disingenuous of Republicans to pretend that Bristol Palin's condition is irrelevant to the discussion.

Sarah Palin in on record as a supporter of "abstinence only" sex education, a policy position proudly espoused by the Republican party as proof of their so-called "family values." So the fact that the unmarried teenage daughter of their VP candidate shows up pregnant at 17 as an undeniable CONSEQUENCE of this policy is absolutely relevant, since it speaks DIRECTLY to those issues which advocates of sex education and accessible birth control are trying to counteract, which, again, Sarah Palin objects to.

And please, spare me the "she's getting married" argument. No one -- and I mean NO ONE -- believes that she'd be getting married BUT for the pregnancy. I have no respect for a political party that forces children to save the face of an idiotic and hypocritical position (17-year-olds using birth control=bad, 17-year-olds getting married=good). Putting a shotgun in the faces of these two kids in no way changes the fact that the lack of access to birth control contributed to their dilemma.

No doubt, Republicans will argue that premarital sex was the real culprit. Of course, this isn't really surprising given that they've never been able to grasp the fact that most teen pregnancies don't occur to virgins, but rather to girls who have had sex several times without consequences before finally ending up pregnant. They don't get that these girls know that sex doesn't ALWAYS lead to pregnancy. Teens tend to be risk-takers. This is why "abstinence only" sex education is so unbelievably stupid.

Personally, I feel sorry for Bristol. The coming years are going to be psychologically difficult (if not traumatic) for her, no matter the outcome of the election. It's a sad thing...forcing a 2008 girl to live in 1958 for the sake of rhetoric.

Re: Bristol's pregnancy DOES matter
by thewolf05827
After you've supplied your proof that young Ms. Palin has received "abstinence-only education" and no other information regarding sexuality and reproduction, you'll probably want to take a statistics course.
Re: Bristol's pregnancy DOES matter
by Sickofleft
Last I checked no foolproof method exist for keeping kids from making mistakes.
"You'll Probably Want To Take A Statistics Course"
by LeRoy_Was_Here

And it probably does not matter to you that a whole slewful of carefully conducted studies have shown that abstinence-only education simply does not work.

At least, that is what the statistics say.

This has become so evident that there is a growing trend of states actually refusing federal money intended to promote such failed programs.

Imagine that, states actually turning down 'free' federal money.

Re: Bristol's pregnancy DOES matter
by entj4sure

Well if she got it, I don't think she got it in school in Alaska, I believe her mom nixed funding for sex-ed in schools.

Further, most women over 40 use birth control because they understand that statistically, their odds of having a Downs Syndrome child are increased. It isn't the fear of having a Downs child that bothers most, it is that they realize the burden of care would be passed on to their other children when they are no longer able to care for the child. Most parents don't feel that is fair, so they use birth control rather than have to make a horrible decision about abortion. If Roe vs. Wade is overturned I guess women over 40 who aren't prepared to take the chance will have to stop having sex (and no, birth control doesn't always work).

We Shouldn't Do Anything Until We Have A Foolproof Method?
by LeRoy_Was_Here

Sickofleft: Last I checked no foolproof method exist for keeping kids from making mistakes.

LeRoy: Meaning we should wait until we have a 'foolproof method'?? I would think that we would want to base our policies on the best available scientific information. Which is that abstinence-only programs do not work.

Sarah Palin is not so 'hot' or 'keen' on science, though.

And I guess you aren't, either.

I guess you think we should base our policies on wishful thinking. Hoping that young people will remain celibate until they get married is wishful thinking. [The average age of first marriage nowadays is in the late 20s, you know.]

Re: Bristol's pregnancy DOES matter
by GG313

LeRoy_Was_Here: thank you for providing the data regarding what the statistics say about the ineffectiveness of abstinence only sex education.

As to "stat guy", what does it matter what other type of "information" she received if she wasn't encouraged to USE protection? Let's be honest here. No one (not even Republicans) are running around pushing their kids into marriage simply because they've discovered they had sex. No, this reaction is due to the fact that Bristol got PREGNANT. THAT is the "mistake" being referred to here.


Re: Bristol's pregnancy DOES matter
by thewolf05827
You can't prove something like your claim (that abstinence-only education) doesn't work if there are other, uncontrolled, variables or using a single data point.
Re: "You'll Probably Want To Take A Statistics Course"
by thewolf05827

"And it probably does not matter to you that a whole slewful of carefully conducted studies have shown that abstinence-only education simply does not work."

As is your frequent habit, Leroy, you are wrong-- it most certainly does matter... and in fact, that was about 50% of the point of my post.

Re: "You'll Probably Want To Take A Statistics Course"
by Sickofleft

I am still amazed at how he somehow concluded by my response that I somehow "don't care for science"....................

Stunning.

Re: "You'll Probably Want To Take A Statistics Course"
by thewolf05827
I'm no longer amazed when people blithely make unsupported assumptions about people with whom they disagree.
As Usual, You Don't Know What You're Talking About.
by LeRoy_Was_Here

What 'other uncontrolled variables' have been left out of these studies which I am going to cite below? If you know of any, why don't you publish your scientific/statistical objections? As I said, these have been CAREFUL studies. That means they considered (CAREFULLY!!) the possibility of 'uncontrolled variables'. And I have utterly no idea what you mean by 'single data points'. I don't think you do, either. As a drive-by poster, you simply like to post unsupported assertions that appeal to your own sense of vanity.

Congressional

Two major studies by the U.S. Congress have increased the volume of criticism surrounding abstinence-only education.

In 2004, U.S. Congressman Henry A. Waxman of California released a report that provides several examples of inaccurate information being included in federally funded abstinence-only sex education programs. This report bolstered the claims of those arguing that abstinence-only programs deprive teenagers of critical information about sexuality.[12] The claimed errors included:

  • misrepresenting the failure rates of contraceptives
  • misrepresenting the effectiveness of condoms in preventing HIV transmission, including the citation of a discredited 1993 study by Dr. Susan Weller, when the federal government had acknowledged it was inaccurate in 1997 and larger and more recent studies that did not have the problems of Weller's study were available
  • false claims that abortion increases the risk of infertility, premature birth for subsequent pregnancies, and ectopic pregnancy
  • treating stereotypes about gender roles as scientific fact
  • other scientific errors, e.g. stating that "twenty-four chromosomes from the mother and twenty-four chromosomes from the father join to create this new individual" (the actual number is 23).[12]

Out of the 13 grant-receiving programs examined in the 2004 study, the only two not containing "major errors and distortions" were Sex Can Wait and Managing Pressures before Marriage, each of which was used by five grantees, making them two of the least widely used programs in the study. With the exception of the FACTS program, also used by 5 grantees, the programs found to contain serious errors were more widely used, ranging in usage level from 7 grantees (the Navigator and Why kNOw programs) to 32 grantees (the Choosing the Best Life program). Three of the top five most widely used programs, including the top two, used versions of the same textbook, Choosing the Best, from either 2003 (Choosing the Best Life) or 2001 (Choosing the Best Path — the second most widely used program with 28 grantees — and Choosing the Best Way, the fifth most widely used program with 11 grantees).

In 2007, a study ordered by Congress found that middle school students who took part in abstinence-only sex education programs were just as likely to have sex in their teenage years as those who did not.[13] From 1999 to 2006, the study tracked more than 2,000 students from age 11 or 12 to age 16; the study included students who had participated in one of four abstinence education programs, as well as a control group who had not participated in such a program. By age 16, about half of each group — students in the abstinence-only program as well as students in the control group — were still abstinent. Abstinence program participants who became sexually active during the 7-year study period reported having similar numbers of sexual partners as their peers of the same age; moreover, they had sex for the first time at about the same age as other students. The study also found that students who took part in the abstinence-only programs were just as likely to use contraception when they did have sex as those who did not participate. Abstinence-only education advocates claim the study was too narrow, began when abstinence-only curricula were in their infancy, and ignored other studies that have shown positive effects.[14]

[edit] Scientific and medical

Abstinence-only education has been criticized in official statements by the American Psychological Association,[15] the American Medical Association,[16] the National Association of School Psychologists,[17] the Society for Adolescent Medicine,[18] the American College Health Association,[18] the American Academy of Pediatrics,[19] and the American Public Health Association,[20] which all maintain that sex education needs to be comprehensive to be effective.

The AMA "urges schools to implement comprehensive... sexuality education programs that... include an integrated strategy for making condoms available to students and for providing both factual information and skill-building related to reproductive biology, sexual abstinence, sexual responsibility, contraceptives including condoms, alternatives in birth control, and other issues aimed at prevention of pregnancy and sexual transmission of diseases... [and] opposes the sole use of abstinence-only education..."[16]

The American Academy of Pediatrics states that "Abstinence-only programs have not demonstrated successful outcomes with regard to delayed initiation of sexual activity or use of safer sex practices... Programs that encourage abstinence as the best option for adolescents, but offer a discussion of HIV prevention and contraception as the best approach for adolescents who are sexually active, have been shown to delay the initiation of sexual activity and increase the proportion of sexually active adolescents who reported using birth control."[19]

On August 4, 2007, the British Medical Journal published an editorial concluding that there is "no evidence" that abstinence-only sex education programs "reduce risky sexual behaviours, incidence of sexually transmitted infections, or pregnancy" in "high income countries".[21]

A comprehensive review of 115 program evaluations published in November 2007 by the National Campaign to Prevent Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy found that two-thirds of sex education programs focusing on both abstinence and contraception had a positive effect on teen sexual behavior. The same study found no strong evidence that abstinence-only programs delayed the initiation of sex, hastened the return to abstinence, or reduced the number of sexual partners.[22][23] According to the study author:

"Even though there does not exist strong evidence that any particular abstinence program is effective at delaying sex or reducing sexual behavior, one should not conclude that all abstinence programs are ineffective. After all, programs are diverse, fewer than 10 rigorous studies of these programs have been carried out, and studies of two programs have provided modestly encouraging results. In sum, studies of abstinence programs have not produced sufficient evidence to justify their widespread dissemination."

Joycelyn Elders, former Surgeon General of the United States, is a notable critic of abstinence-only sex education. She was among the interviewees Penn & Teller included in their Bullshit! episode on the subject.[24]

Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania, argues that abstinence-only sex education leads to the opposite of the intended results by spreading ignorance regarding sexually transmitted diseases and the proper use of contraceptives to prevent both infections and pregnancy.[25]

Oh. You Weren't Disagreeing With The Top Poster??
by LeRoy_Was_Here

Sure you were. Now, of course, you are trying to deny it, but other people can read the thread and see that you were ridiculing the top poster's well-written arguments against abstinence-only sex education programs with your snide remark to the effect that 'no foolproof method' has been found to prevent young people from making mistakes.

We should use the best methods available. Not 'foolproof', but the best.

And that ain't abstinence-only programs.

I just wish we could find a 'foolproof' way of protecting America from ideological idiots.

Alas, no way to do that, either.

Re: Bristol's pregnancy DOES matter
by GG313

thewolf05827:
You can't prove something like your claim (that abstinence-only education) doesn't work if there are other, uncontrolled, variables or using a single data point.

That "single-data point" is a visible reality of the current policy. As to my claim, there are scads of data available that has judged the efficacy of abstinence-only programs and found them lacking.

Proponents of expanding sex education are not suggesting that no girls will get pregnant if given greater access to birth control. But fewer will. One would think that might be a worthy goal considering that we currently have the highest teen pregnancy rate in the industrialized world.


Re: Oh. You Weren't Disagreeing With The Top Poster??
by thewolf05827
Were you intending to rave about something in particular, Leroy?
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