There are many reasons why a career in teaching is unattractive to many and a 'teired' abortion of a system wouldnt address many of the concerns and difficulties that drive out or prevent many from entering the teaching profession. I will list my complaints, firt, then some of the things I see as possible solutions.

1) Teaching sucks because children nowadays are ill mannered little pissants that need a swift kick in the ass, possibly several times a day.

2) Teaching sucks because these kids got that way somehow, and you get to meet them on parent-teacher nights.

3) Teaching sucks, because to get a degree costs thousands upon thousands of dollars, and starting teacher pay is less than an assistant manager at Burger King makes.

4) Teaching sucks, because people think that you work a breezy 8-3 and have nothing better to do with your spare time than work on your golf game etc.

5) Teaching sucks, because most principals only works as teachers for the minimum of 5 years (required) before trying to become administrators. They only view their stint as a teacher as a pre-req, not as a vitally important career that they can draw experience and understanding from.

6) Teaching sucks, because every goddamn moron parent wih a degree thinks they know your job better than you and feels compelled to tell you how you need to be sensitive to the needs of their special snowflake. Additionally, since their lives completely revolve around the axis of a waste of a perfectly good social security number, yours should too.

7) Teaching sucks, because when your friends toss their car keys up on the counter, they have nice, new cars and live in decent homes. As a teacher in the first 5 years of teaching, you drive a beat up shitbox and live in a slum.

8) Teaching sucks, because everything you do, every word you say, every action you perform puts you and your career potentially at risk. Teachers have never been more afraid to discipline students (or even correct them) due to fears of their own physical and legal safety. In inverse proportion to teacher's unwillingness to discipline students, the need has never been higher. Recipe for disaster....

These are obviously broad strokes and dont apply to all teachers and all school circumstances. I have taught and been involved with teaching sufficiently to know the truth of all this shit and it disturbs me greatly. Teachers are the craftsmen that create the next generation of taxpayers. It is intricate, difficult, tiring work that requires patience, skill, knowledge, a deep emotional (and spiritual?) commitment and creativity that most people will never posess.

Some of my ideas for improving the lot of teachers (and thus schools)...

a) Schools are not prisons, nor are they treatment facilities. Behavioral difficulties, emotional issues etc are best handled outside of the classroom. Letting children run riot is wrong. A teacher should be the complete and undisputed master of anything that occurs in his/her room and there should be no doubt in anyones mind of their suzerainity (sp?). I believe that teacher's should be like the samurai of old, with full powers of life and death in their domain, but I dont think that is going to happen.

b) If a parent wants to be involved in a child's education, let them make sure homework gets done. If they want to help in school, let them volunteer as (unpaid) teacher's aides with some standard periodicity. If you screwed with a mechanic or carpenter (etc) while they were trying to get their work done, they would hit you with a tool. I would at least...

c) Loan forgiveness up to 100k at 20k per year for 5 years. Enough said...

d) In-house training should be a constant and important part of life. Summertime teacher's conferences in nice places should be encouraged and paid for by school districts. There should be some designation of 'master teacher', and each master teacher should have some number of new teachers assigned to them. If 2 sections of a class are taught and a new teacher has one of them, the master responsible for their professional development should have the other. The 'sink or swim' method of learning such an important art is completely bullshit and retarded.

e) Master teachers (however they are decided) should have complete personnel control of the teachers under them and should serve as a buffer between the administration and the educators. Ideally, the person that runs a business should have some clue about wtf it actually does, but more and more administrators either in the public or private sector are completely ignorant of the business they run.

I would finish, but I need to go get my wife. I will bitch and complain more later, if anyone is interested...

Have a great day!

Except for the parents, I could say all the same things about being an environmental manager. Though my graduate degree cost about the same (and may have been more difficult), I make half of what the MBAs at my company with less experience make. Trust me, you guys aren't the only ones driving crappy cars and living in crappy houses. Not that it's right. But I've worked with teachers and they can have a "poor me" attitude, when in the end you chose the profession despite these downfalls. Look on the bright side, at least you're not a social worker.

buggie:

Except for the parents, I could say all the same things about being an environmental manager. Though my graduate degree cost about the same (and may have been more difficult), I make half of what the MBAs at my company with less experience make. Trust me, you guys aren't the only ones driving crappy cars and living in crappy houses. Not that it's right. But I've worked with teachers and they can have a "poor me" attitude, when in the end you chose the profession despite these down falls. Look on the bright side, at least you're not a social worker.

buggie, I'm glad you brought that up! As a Principal Investigator at an environmental consulting firm, I 100% agree. It isn't just teachers who get low pay in comparison to their educational backgrounds. I know many archaeologists, biologists, social workers, historians, etc., etc. in the exact same boat.

Heck, in some ways I'm envious of teachers... Even though they get paid less than I do, they get a real pension, nearly free health insurance, 2 months "off" in the summer, and job security.

I actually thought about going into teaching. Unfortunately, even though I taught several upper level courses to undergraduates while in grad school, I'm not qualified to teach 9th grad social studies. Also, I can't stand children that aren't related to me :-)

KB01:

buggie:

Except for the parents, I could say all the same things about being an environmental manager. Though my graduate degree cost about the same (and may have been more difficult), I make half of what the MBAs at my company with less experience make. Trust me, you guys aren't the only ones driving crappy cars and living in crappy houses. Not that it's right. But I've worked with teachers and they can have a "poor me" attitude, when in the end you chose the profession despite these down falls. Look on the bright side, at least you're not a social worker.

buggie, I'm glad you brought that up! As a Principal Investigator at an environmental consulting firm, I 100% agree. It isn't just teachers who get low pay in comparison to their educational backgrounds. I know many archaeologists, biologists, social workers, historians, etc., etc. in the exact same boat.

After an undergraduate degree, and with the exception of MBAs and some doctors and lawyers, the more educated you are, the less you will get paid. You don't need an extensive education to go into business and make a lot of money. But you do need one to teach children and cure cancer. You never get the money back and that's the decision you make. Hell, I have a friend who went to law school, and now is an ADA. She makes so little it's horrifying, I have no idea how she makes her student loan payments and rent. I'd say the majority of highly educated people are making a trade off between their education/profession and the resulting salary.

Glad to see all the really good responses here! Howdy all! The problem isnt what social workers are paid, social workers arent strictly required for society to function. As a matter of fact, I get occasionally pissed off that in Burlington (a sanctuary city), people ho were not born here and who are not citizens get every goddamn thing paid for, while I have my teeth (literally) crumbling in my mouth (due to bruxism, secondary to pain from pancreatitis). My wife and children receive no assistance either, but thats beside the point. We both decided to spend our lives doing research and as such, we dont make shit for money. Fry cooks at Mickey's make more than I do.

For ADA's, it is the idea of 'Coursus Honorum' . Most of them plan on cashing in (somehow) ASAP, they just need some body of work to prostitute. That is my token 'Eliot Spitzer' joke. For scientists and the like, we do what we enjoy doing (sometimes, lol), so the pay cut is in many ways a trade-off rather than a cut. I have had no less than 3 different careers that each paid well over 100k a year, but in my present career path, that mark is some way off in the future. Oh well.

But society depends heavily on our ability to educate the next generation. The numbers of new teachers needed in the next 20 years boggles the mind. Because of teacher's unions, starting teachers dont make shit, and teachers that have no skill and f**k-all for giving a shit get paid incrementally more each year, skewing the average numbers hard. I dont think that a teacher that has worked for 5 years should get paid less than one that has worked for 15, unless that 15 year teacher brings something additional to the table. Usually they dont, its sad, they are wage slaves at that point, all the creativity and fire has been beat out of them at that pint, drowned in a sea of apathy. 'I am stepped in blood so far, it would be as tedious to go back as to go o'er' doesnt just apply to war.

What I would like to see is a more systematic approach to teacher pay, including 'bounties' for qualified and qualifiable specializations, like math, science and language. Kinda like the Army does, enlistment and re-enlistment bonuses. There should be summer enrichment programs available for teachers, paid for by school districts and/or federal funds. Imagine how much more interested science majors would be in teaching if they got to do research (or archeology, travel etc) during the 'dead time' of summer? Raising minimum pay, reducing the inequities caused by the tyranny of seniority and creating a more dynamic work environment for teachers are all things that would go along way to averting the upcoming train wreck that faces our educational system.

And dont even get me started on the whole bullshit 'alternative certification' system. I personally think (sometimes) that anyone with a vested interest with the abortion that our current system is should be shot dead on live TV and random people from the street should be given the task of reforming our system. They certainly couldnt do any worse and with any luck, they might even give a shit about how well the system works.

Any time I hear about 'professional educators', I think of Charlesetta Collins, PhD and laugh my ass silly. The best thing that can be said about Dr Collins now, is that at least she is in another country f**king up someone elses kids with her incompetance...

After an undergraduate degree, and with the exception of MBAs and some doctors and lawyers, the more educated you are, the less you will get paid

Nice try. <link> Let's face it, people become teachers for some combination of the following reasons:

1. They have a calling for it, love the work, love their students and love the idea that they are shaping the future.

2. They were middling to poor scholars themselves and couldn't hack the engineering, pre-med, pre-law programs. (Or couldn't get into grad school).

3. They're willing to trade earnings for the job security, benefits and time off associated with being a civil servant.

Nothing wrong with any of that, but spare me the cynicism. If your job sucks a** man up and find another one.

WD - It sounds like you are angry at the world and have a bad attitude yourself. Not everyone is as cynical as you. A few points -

- Teachers in my district -suburban Chicago - start around $40,000, reach $60,000 within 5 years or so and most retiring this year will make well over $100,000. That is a hell of a lot more than an assistant manager at Burger King. Add in free health care and the security and you're talking about a damn good living for 9 months a year. My wife and I are both high school teachers with 5 years of experience. We've paid off our student loans, own a nice home, have 2 nice cars and are saving enough to retire at 59.

- Most districts do pay for education workshops and advanced degrees. Some pay for everything, some re-imburse a certain %.

- Good teachers don't think all kids are ill mannered little pissants who need a swift kick in the pants. Every think maybe kids seem like ill mannered little pissants to you because of how YOU approach THEM? I'm not exactly nice and respectful to people who approach me with an attitude and a chip on their shoulder.

- New teachers get paid the least because usually they are the worst teacher. Every first year teacher I've ever met was bad. Good teachers get better every year. Bad teachers never get better. One of the most important things to maintaining a good faculty under the current system is to get rid of the bad teachers before they get tenure. Don't 'blame' the bad teacher for being bad - blame the administrator who's job it was to evaluate that person.

- Most teachers don't want to 'climb the ladder' as you put it. The day I retire I will be doing exactly the same job I was hired to do when I was 22. I will be a lot better at it, and I will make a lot more money - but I never have to worry about getting that next promotion or climbing the corporate ladder.

-Good teachers do it because they like working with the kids and making a difference in people's lives. Sure the money could be better, sometimes the parents can be a pain in the ass and there are some kids that are a pain in the ass, and all the nonsense you put up with can be tough. But if you approach the job with the right attitude and for the right reasons it is an incredibly rewarding career.

So bottom line. Teaching doesn't suck ass, people who blame everyone else for their own problems, however - do.

MBale,

You are a`bit presumptive, boy. I know of the problems because I was an educator for some time and will be again. My experience`includes high school, college and university teaching assistantships, working as a teacher(and a` corrections officer) at a youth correction facility, for an NAACP/NASA joint inner-city education project and as an instructor in military service. When I finish my PhD, I will be a tenure track (hopefully) assistant professor. New teachers dont know shit, thats why I think that more experienced teachers should be assigned to mentor new teachers. But that doesnt happen as often as it should, IMO.

Also, you are an idiot to mistake my recognizing the difficulties ofteaching with having suffered them. With 7 classes out of 8 periods,with 30+ students per class, I had exactly 2 cases where I required the use of disciplinary measures (the little pink chair). Kids are little snotnose punks (for the most part) and their parents are usually worse. For every helicopter parent I have ever seen, there are at least 3 that dont give a shit. Besides that, I am a 250 pound ex-paratroper, I dont tend to have problems with the kids. But that doesnt stop me from seeing the inherent problems.

Short form, you can jam your sanctimonious screed right up your a**, you dont know what you are talking about. The problem is and remains that there will be a 250,000 person shortfall of teachers in under 20 years. Unless something is done, were all boned. And,unless you can figure out why people dont want to teach, you cant fix it. Im sure there will be Ghandi's that dont mind being unappreciated and poor to fill some of those slots, but that wont haul the wagon. Please try and get your head out of your ass before you try and correct someone that has literally dedicated his life to teaching and helping children.

I've known plenty of teachers who thought 'teaching sucks ass.' Every single one of them was a crappy teacher. In fact, often the more 'dedicated' and experienced they claimed to be the worse they were. Doing it for a long time doesn't mean you're good at it. Every good teacher I know loves it and wouldn't come up with a list of why it 'sucks ass.' I'm not being presumptive or sanctimonious to point out my own experience, which is clearly very different from yours.

I apoligize if my words were harsh and my tone unfriendly. I teach because I love it. I am an excellent teacher. I have also seen many excellent teachers leave the profession because they got crushed under the wheels. I myself have no desire to teach anything in the state of Texas ever again and my mistrust of school systems run deep. Several of my friends are and were PhDs in education and I count many long time and greatly skilled teachers among my close friends and family.

That being said, we have spent many hours over wine and beer and dinner discussing what we individually and as a group think is wrong with teaching and the system that teachers live under. Yes, there are some systems that are better and more enlightened than some others, but the general rule is, the system is broken. Compounding this is the looming crisis of teachers not making it past the 5 year point. This is additionally coupled to the protectionist and poorly planned alternative certification systems currently in place. Teachers arent even reaching replacement level, and in 15 years, over 50% of the teaching workforce will be fully eligible to retire. Extrapolating current retention and hiring numbers predicts a quarter of a million teacher shortfall.

That is a poor method of doing science, but some number has to be decided on and at least the methodology for that one is transparent and understandable. Yes, there are some teachers that would work anywhere under any conditions for any pay. There are also doctors that feel the same way about medicine (among which I count myself one), but you cannot staff an entire system with those people, they are (way) too few. Therefore, you must identify some of the causes for the pipeline being so narrow and must propose solutions for that problem or problems. That is all I have tried to do here, without screed, without invective, without anger, merely a recognition of the shortcomings in the current system.

I hope you accept my apoligy and that we can be friends as well.

Have a great day!

mbale:

- Teachers in my district -suburban Chicago - start around $40,000, reach $60,000 within 5 years or so and most retiring this year will make well over $100,000. That is a hell of a lot more than an assistant manager at Burger King.

I would be curious to know what the median income is for teachers nationwide. Where I live, the starting salary for a teacher is $26,000. Though, the cost-of-living is somewhat low here, it's not THAT low. My sister, who started teaching around 1998 in rural Pennsylvania started at $28,000.

I'm not convinced that teachers earning $100k is the norm in the vast majority of the US.

Mbale,

BTW, in 1986-87 I was an assistant manager for Burger King (then full manager). My pay with 1 yr experience, before I got my own store, was 35,000/year plus bonus pay of around 5k (as 1st asst).

The rent on my 2 bedroom house at the time, with a wall around the whole thing, a manicured lawn, a pond, with a fountain and waterfall, wooden floors, covered porch, california lights along the paths in the yard and leading to the house, a fully mirrored dining room and a stone fireplace that actually worked (in Ft Lauderdale Fl, no less) was $500/month.

An assistant manager, with no college degree and 1 year experience, totally crushes what teachers at any level (including university tenure track professors in their first year) earn. I say this from experience at all levels and sides of this argument.

All of the teachers I know make more than a burger king assistant manager (plus the benefits and extended vacations). And they get tons of free continued education.

Show me a teacher, anywhere in this country at any level at any school, making a starting salary of $40k in 1986 dollars....

You dont, I am pretty willing to bet, lol.

That includes starting university professors, med school professors, or any other educational graduate field. That was the point of including housing costs by comparison, today a house like that would cost well over $1500/month. Money was worth about 3 times what it does now.

Have a great day!

Damn maybe I should look into the fast food career! :) I had no idea you could do so well in that field.

Anyway I hate how over message boards it is way too easy to misunderstand people's intention and tone. I also apologize if I came off like a jerk in my reply.

I've had a lot of those beer-fueled conversations myself, and they tend to be pretty negative in general, usually degrading into full-blown bitch sessions before long Usually us teachers can't really let loose in the office and the bar or a colleague's home tend to be when the best conversations are had, and often the best 'professional development' as well. I agree that there are a lot of problems, particularly at the macro level.

I've wondered about the whole 'teacher shortage' lately. When I was in school our ed. professors constantly harped about the looming teacher shortage, how we'd all find jobs in no time at all, and that many schools are so desparate for people that they were offering signing bonuses and crazy benefits like paying for housing and moving expenses. I haven't seen this at all where I work - plenty of my friends have been out of work and looking for teaching jobs but unable to find any. My assumption is that they just can't find the 'right' job and don't want to teach under-priveleged areas. The cushy high-paying suburban jobs still have lots of applicants and the pick of the litter, so to speak. I've never taught in an inner city school, so I really can't speak to the personnel problems there.

I'm guessing that the bigger problem is the lack of QUALITY applicants for most positions. In our openings here I've sat in on lots of interviews with people that I knew had no chance of making it. Sometimes you can just tell right away that someone doesn't have the chops to make it. I know I'm very lucky to work in a great school and a community that values their schools. I think that if I was paid more I'd be the same teacher I am now, but maybe people could be drawn in from other careers if the salaries were a bit more competitive with other professional careers.

KB - I'm would imagine when you compare earnings potential vs. cost of living most teachers are in the same ballpark. Living in Chicago is expensive, but the salaries are pretty good. By my standards at least I feel fairly compensated. I could probably go to rural West Virginia and live like a king on my salary, but I wouldn't want to try it in New York City.