'The Zone refers to a 97-block area that Canada has blanketed with social services and equipped with an elementary school and junior high, both charters within the New York public school system.'

i don't think that we should let liberals have any say so in cleaning up the public schools as their crappy policies are what fucked them up in the first place.

Care to explain what policies you're referring to and what effects each one had? Or what you think would have prevented the educational disaster in poverty-stricken areas?

I ask that because whenever I see somebody blaming liberals in that manner, it turns out that they're primarily parrioting somebody else's beliefs without actually having knowledge on the topics involved. Telltale signs being that they have the facts wrong, are pointing to a liberal attitude that's not present in that situation (or that is commonly present in the successful group), are referring to a problem that predates what they're blaming, or any number of other mistakes.

Blame the liberals. How original. I am confident that someone that needs to use curse words as casually as irvingchang should be excluded from any conversation about education, or any other conversation that involves addressing a situation intelligently.

'Care to explain what policies you're referring to and what effects each one had?'

thanks for asking. the first thing is the unholy alliance between the democrat party and the teachers unions. this is self evident.

secondly would be the new teaching methods that stress self esteem over education that has lead to an outcome based system.

third. mainstreaming which is a bad use of the public money and marginalizes the schools.

fourth. affirmative action programs which has led to unqualified teachers.

chew on those for awhile. i have more but i don't want to overload your brains.

Reforming public schools isn't about blaming liberals or conservatives. In fact, I believe it is very simple.

The single largest misconception about education is that it is an institutional matter. I mean, we have been conditioned for years to believe that educating children is best left to professionals. Therein lies the problem.

Education will always be the job of parents. School officials and teachers should consider themselves the servants of parents, not a public system. When that changes, educational problems will reform by default.

In short, I am responsible for the educational attitudes and habits of my own children. So when parents care little about their kids education, the child should know ultimately that it revolves around their own parents lack of involvement and concern. That way, blame is much easier to assign.

By the same token, when a child goes through public schools and performs well, teachers shouldn't pat themselves too hard on the back. It's the kids and their parents who did the heavy lifting.

My concern is just that people have lived so long with the mythology surrounding public schools that apples vs. oranges comparisons have blinded most of us to the facts.

'The single largest misconception about education is that it is an institutional matter. I mean, we have been conditioned for years to believe that educating children is best left to professionals. Therein lies the problem.'

you have a point. there is no bigger institution than the government.

so i explained. where did you go? to hide under mommys skirt?

New to the conversation, but I'll take a crack at it, even though you've already proven yourself to be pretty adept.... at being rude and obnoxious.

"the first thing is the unholy alliance between the democrat party and the teachers unions. this is self evident."

Well, I'm not sure what you're talking about here, since both parties have been on the wrong side of each other plenty of times, so I'd like to hear more about what you think this unholy alliance hath wrought.

"secondly would be the new teaching methods that stress self esteem over education that has lead to an outcome based system."

Having worked in public schools in Ohio, San Francisco and New York - I can honestly say I have no idea what you're talking about here. Have you seen what schools have to do because of NCLB? They teach to the test, starting on day 1 and they don't stop until the end of the school year.

"third. mainstreaming which is a bad use of the public money and marginalizes the schools."

Mainstreaming is a bad use of public money? Where's the money?! In New York, you couldn't take some special ed kids out of the class if you wanted to - they don't have enough money for appropriate teachers or the space for separate classrooms.

"fourth. affirmative action programs which has led to unqualified teachers."

Have you ever been to an inner-city school? All of the new teachers are young, and a about half to a third are white. Why? Because the young are idealistic and are willing to work for less pay. Teach for America brings teachers in, so does New York teaching fellows. And guess what? After 5 years, most of them are gone. Nobody wants to work in a school that's overcrowded and underfunded.

What's was that last word? Underfunded. Oh yeah, that's why our schools are failing. Because we can't buy and retain talent, renovate buildings or provide special services. And in my experience, both Democrat and Republicans have stayed consistent in giving inadequate funding to schools. Doing more with less usually just results in... less.

'What's was that last word? Underfunded. Oh yeah, that's why our schools are failing. Because we can't buy and retain talent, renovate buildings or provide special services. And in my experience, both Democrat and Republicans have stayed consistent in giving inadequate funding to schools.'

you get 13000 per year per pupil in DC. 11000 per year per pupil in atlanta, chicago, philly, detroit figures are similar. you're getting enough money alright.

the money is being spent on administrators and upper management perks. that is the unholy alliance between the teachers unions and the dems.

they always scream for more money, get it and then proceed to squander it.

95% of this funny biz goes on at the local level to be sure.

I think you make a mistake when you assume that the one's who are asking for the money are the one's who are getting it. That's clearly not the case. They're always screaming for more money because they're not getting it! I don't know how it's done in other cities, but the bureaucrats in NYC are not part of the teacher's union and the administration isn't even Democrat!

A couple of thing's about the numbers: 1. You have to factor in cost of living. New York spends about 13,750 per year but is really expensive to live in, so they have to pay more to keep teachers there. 2. How much does a private school education cost? In New York, it sure ain't 13,750... and private schools get donations from alumni as well. 3. City-wide numbers don't mean much when you can't look at specific districts, since it's always the poor districts that are doing worse, right? In New York, poorer, struggling schools get less money.

So yeah, clearly bad government has a lot to do with it, but the cherry on top is No Child Left Behind, which is the biggest joke of all and whose requirements resemble nothing that we would think of when we think of education.

'So yeah, clearly bad government has a lot to do with it, but the cherry on top is No Child Left Behind, which is the biggest joke of all and whose requirements resemble nothing that we would think of when we think of education.'

i am certainly no fan of NCLB as it increases the feds role in education which is exactly the wrong thing to do. i could have smacked the president for doing a deal with that prick kennedy which i knew would be yet another government boondoggle that did nothing but to hire a bunch of busy bodies beauracrats to test everyone.

i say we must leave some of them behind as i think we should spent the money on the ones that want to be educated and the ungrateful or ignorant ones be vocationally trained in the proper use of a mop and bucket so that others can pursue excellence.

it was this liberal philosophy of making everything equal which eventually made mediocrity the norm.

Oh give me a break with that Ayn Rand crap. A child growing up in the ghetto has their cards stacked against them before they're even conceived. And guess what? Their parents did too. This country has a long history of racism and then jerks like you come along and accuse 12 year-olds of not caring enough? If they cared, what would they get? They'd still get a shitty education. And if they managed to sit through that stultifying bullshit and made it to college, they'd have exorbitant loans for the next 20 years of their lives. And then what? Being "ungrateful" makes a lot of sense to me.

"So that others can pursue excellence"? It's your party that derides liberals for being elitist and romanticizes blue collar voters (who barely even exist anymore) who want to have a beer with the president. We've had 40 years of mostly Republican presidencies and you actually think that liberals made everything mediocre?

This is my last post on this thread, since it's clear the conversation won't go anywhere from here.

Have you ever spent time in the neighborhoods of the kids you call ungrateful or ignorant, besides on your commute to the suburbs? Every person I have ever worked with in a poor neighborhood has been liberal, and I think it's because they realize how much we've robbed and punished the poor and they're outraged at the injustices they've seen. The liberal philosophy of making everything mediocre would be a nice change of pace from what's really going on, in which inequaltiy between the rich and everyone else has been growing for the past 30 years. Something, I think, which is more in line with your "pursuit of excellence." It might seem mediocre to you, and you're right - things are bad now - but it's just because conservatism is bullshit.

like i said to start. jerkoff guilt pushing busy body liberals such as yourself should not have any say so in education policies because you are the ones who fucked them up in the 1st place.

'If they cared, what would they get? They'd still get a shitty education.'

i though obammys mammy was a poor single mother? WTF? monkey boy went to harvard so i guess that blows that little nugget of guilt pushing crapola out of the water.

i guess you've never heard oprah's weepy story either. sniff sniff.

'Every person I have ever worked with in a poor neighborhood has been liberal, and I think it's because they realize how much we've robbed and punished the poor and they're outraged at the injustices they've seen.'

you know that begs a question. if poor people always complain about how bad they have it, why do they continue to vote for democrats based on their track record of never doing anything about it?