Imagine her as President.

Will foreign countries enjoy talking "pro-life" and/or (I imagine) Jeeeziz?

The horror is that McCain has all Southern States locked up.

Will USA get really divided again, as The South's religious fixation separates them further from the Northeast and California?

Will we endure more years of rotten warfare whiie "the debate" focuses on abortion?

A beauty-contest winner?

Is Palin a product of our best schools? Companies? Institutes?

Would anyone really pay attention to her?

Who else will McCain choose, given opportunity?

Imagine his choices for Supreme Court.

Yech!

Feh!!

The country can't get away from itself.

And let's face it: Obama's speech was pretty uninspiring.

Four years of down down down America!

Who really brought this about? I guess it's we the people!

We've fallen!

I'm glad to see another example of the Left's tolerance and lack of elitism. Don't Leftists react wonderfully well to people who are not like them? Don't they show respect for opposing viewpoints? I sure am glad they don't think they are better than us unenlightened hicks. ...

is that if we elect people like yourself, America will be much better off -- or that we should not elect people unlike yourself.

And you also seem to be saying that you're proud to be a right-winger.

I myself doubt that the right-wing bigshots care at all about you or your ideas. They just want your vote and will drape their candidates with any kind of mask that you like.

McCain is the candidate in that image, and Palin is the mask. She won't appeal to GOP bigshots, whose vote is locked up, but she will appeal to right-wingers devoted to guns, gay-bashing, and God.

Unfortunately, that disease was inflicted o the country by a Democrat -- Jimmie Carter.

LBJ was a great man and a hick. Truman too. And Clinton.

Reagan was a (bad) actor whose best friends were all elitists. Worse with the Bushes.

Try to think!

When you say "try to think," you are really saying "start to agree with me," confirming my thesis. I think you would benefit by studying the difference between objective and subjective, between fact and opinion, between inductive and deductive. What you seem to me to be saying is that everyone who does not agree with you is an idiot. Get over yourself - other people really can have different opinions.

For the record, I intend to vote for the candidate with whom I most agree. Absent knowledge to the contrary, I assume you will do the same and that it will be a different candidate. I celebrate the fact that both of us have a right to do so. You seem to lament it. Totalitarianism, anyone?

That's what I asked you to try thinking about.

I don't seek to force you to vote for anyone.

All people vote for someone with whom they think they agree.

Since you emphasized "hicks," I mentioned that LBJ, Truman, and Clinton were all "hicks," while the GOP has not recently had a candidate who was a "hick." Perhaps, however, Palin is one such person. I can see how that might appeal to you, but I assure you that any humble qualities in her will be disregarded, even if she inherits the Presidency.

As for the other candidates, I find them all underwhelming, and McCain doesn't represent the average or lower classes, wherein most hicks are located -- unlike us pushy Ivy-League millionaire Jewboys with foreign parents and dirt-poor origins.

As far as I can tell, Mc's number one position is to ban freedom of choice on abortions. Then he takes a strong position against gay marriage (I'm against that too). Next he's for guns all over the place. And I can't tell if he thinks evolution is wrong.

After that, Mc has a great position on energy, which I'd like the Dems to join.

But on Social Sec, Mc sounds downright loco and ignorant and ready to shaft the hicks. But the Dems have joined the GOP in mis-investing the SS Trust Fund.

Then on taxes, Mc is against collecting enough tax to cover USA's costs, including war costs. He somehow thinks we can cut taxes on the overtaxed rich (not the poor hicks mind you) by reducing spending. ON WHAT? Interest rates are already too low to counter inflation and could skyrocket if the dollar falls further (due to deficits). Mc's economic policies sound very anti-hick to me; but his eco adviser Holtz-Eakin is far better than BO's weirdo Furman. On eco, I still see Mc as following Phil Gramm (a hick) and not Holtz-Eakin.

It DOES seem that your positions very well COULD be formed by evaluating which ones come from hicks.

I heard that Mc is sorely pissed that USA didn't hold on to win in Vietnam. I disagree with that. Bad move to go into Vietnam! Iraq too. Maybe Afgh also.

Remember Raymond!

Ms. Palin seems to be a reasonably balanced and normal American citizen whose political passions aim to preserve, protect and improve America, not to socialize, Europeanize or otherwise wreck the country as so-called Progressives seem determined to do.

I don't hear from her any of the familiar hare-brained schemes or revolutionary aspirations of extremists on either side. If she is really what she seems to be so far, I like her - and I am confident the majority of the electorate will also.

Although Mr. Obama never, ever had the slightest chance of becoming President in the next election, the Palin choice has cooked his goose, and good. I don't know how much if any thought was given to the parental surrogacy implications of McCain-Palin, but however it happened, the combination of strong father and strong mother resonates at the deepest level of the psyche. Obama-Biden cannot hope to compete.

Mr. and Mrs. America, mom and dad, grownups, good people. THIS, and certainly not the teaming up of Obama and Hillary Clinton desired by many, is the true dream ticket.

It's all over but the gathering storm and then the ugly aftermath inflicted upon the rest of us by the sore losers. I dread the rage and rioting -metaphoric, one hopes- of the Leftist gnostics when their messiah is not crowned as they expect and demand - as The One SHOULD be annointed, and would be, were it not for racism. This is not going to be pleasant at all.

It is the Weisbergs of the world and their pals who must answer for the bitterness and harm to the social fabric itself that is certain to follow from the non-election of Mr. Obama.

By framing the outcome exclusively in terms of race and racial bias, they have ensured that the losers will regard their loss, not as a simple political defeat, but as the terrible triumph of evil over good, dark over light, injustice over justice, etc. etc. etc.

I don't know whose bright idea it was to push Mr. Obama out front into a race he could never have won, regardless of his Republican opponent. Although race fanatics either cannot see it or will not admit it, Mr. Obama is un-, anti-, non-, trans-, uber-, unter-, post- American on everything that matters to the great majority of Americans.

Evidently somebody besides himself thought he could talk and spin his way out of that - no implied compliment to the American voter here!

He should move to Europe or some other advanced, enlightened society, and offer himself for public office there. He would perform brilliantly. But he could never succeed as an American politician above the level of Senator, and for the simple and, one would think, perfectly obvious reason that his views and values are not particularly American. Whether he knows it or not, he is rowing against the current - and he and his followers are rowing towards a shore that nobody but themselves desires to visit.

It is odd, to say the least, that our native bien pensant and punditry has so much difficulty seeing what average Americans grasp in a heartbeat. Obama, after all, is the same guy who thought he was too good to wear an American flag lapel after 9-11. A small thing - but symbolic and representative of many more, bigger things. It;s not subtle.

Like most Leftists these days he actually thinks he knows BETTER than the rest of us about what OUGHT to be the case. But normal citizens without axes to grind or fanatical agendas to impose see what their superiors don't or won't.

They see a vain, puffed up, smooth-talking snake oil salesman peddling cures they do not want and will not buy - among other reasons because they do not think they are nearly as sick nor in need of drastic cures as the quackery and flummery they are hearing would have them believe.

The selection of Ms. Palin is cause for satisfaction and relief in its fundamental good sense and normalcy. But that so many people could ever even have thought Mr. Obama could and should be the next President, and that almost none of them will ever relinquish this odd fixation, is and will remain alarming.

It cries out for explanation, analysis, understanding - so that the powerful forces capable of warping and inverting judgment to such massive degree may be exposed and dealt with directly.

You've turned it into a contest for likeabilty.

Mc has always been a 30-watt bulb. He's running against two of the smartest pols in America.

Palin is apparently an appealing mom, as you state very clearly.

I myself usually prefer brainpower over likeability.

Yes. Many voters will vote primitive instincts. The more parental image always wins, so far.

Sovereign8 reminds us all why voters see the Left as elitist. They set themselves up as the annointed few who KNOW that they are smarter than all of the rest of us. We are just too stupid to compete with them, apparently, since the leftist candidate is always said to be smarter than the conservative candidate. Of course, they may have some difficulty explaining why the leftist candidate has only secured a majority of the vote once since 1964--and that in the wake of Watergate--when Jimmy Carter secured a whopping 50.1% of the vote. Apparently, being stupid wins votes.

There is, however, another alternative, which the brilliant partisans of the Left seem to be unable to see. Perhaps the Repbulican candidates are not really that stupid. Perhaps the Left succeeds only in alienating voters with their elitism. Indeed, it seems particularly strange that the Left would pursue this meme in a year in which their candidate is already perceived as an elitist. Accentuating the negative strikes me as an odd strategy, but perhaps there is a method to the madness. Perhaps it is a brilliant ploy that only the elect can comprehend.

As an aside, it seems an odd choice to attack Gov. Palin in this fashion. I was never aware of Joe Biden winning any awards for brilliance. In fact, I seem to remember him being associated with some plagarism problems--a vice not usually associated with the brilliant.

In any event, my advice to my Leftist friends is to keep it up. Go ahead and insult the voters who will decide who wins the election--I double-dog dare you. For me, I shall bide my time and await with anticipation the "deer in the headlights look" I expect to see on my Leftist friends post election. I expect I will enjoy some chortles and gloatings at their expense.

I've read all your posts on Fray. Every post involves you calling other people stupid or claiming that they called you stupid.

The disease is called "monomania."

And you also invent statements that your adversaries don't say.

Your repetition of those disease-symptoms is so strong that you must have been told of the problem many times.

I myself am NOT a leftist, nor a fan of Jimmie Carter. I consider the GOP political campaign right now to be brilliant.

You throw around "leftist" like McCarthy and Cohn did their thing. Last time I saw Roy, he was exiting a swanky hotel with two blonde German boys.

As a former Moderate Democrat,I find this to be one of the most fascinating elections ever!

That does not mean I like any of the candidates, it simply is to give McCain credit for one of the smartest moves in this election.

Why do you think all the squealing is going on? Howard Dean and Donna Brazile are nowhere to be found.They are hiding in the closet, knowing what a fiasco they have created in the Democratic Party, starting with deciding who the nominee would be and throwing out votes in Florida and Michigan to make it happen.

Any fool that watched the DNC meeting whrer they went behind closed doors after pretending they were going to lunch,coming out and giving Obama some of Hillary's won delegates would be ashamed of the whole bunch.

I am, and that is why I became an Independent!

Sovereign8,

I didn't call anyone stupid in any post. The closest I came to doing so was in saying that I thought that the strategy of calling other people stupid did not strike me as being particularly wise. You claim not to be a Leftist, but you are certainly taking cues from their playbook--ignore the substance of arguments against your positions and launch an adhominem attack upon your opponent. This tactic is straight out of Saul Alinsky.

What I sought to do in all of my posts here is to fight the despicable meme that is being floated by the Left--i.e., that opposition to Barak Obama is not principled, but racist. I say it is despicable because it is highly inflammatory, deeply insulting, and a scurrilous lie. The people who advance this "reasoning" are either blinded by partisanship or cynically manipulating a hot button issue. In most cases, I suspect the latter is closest to the truth. I have no intention of being intimidated by these tactics, and I am not willing to allow the allegation to go unanswered. Race relations are likely to be set back considerably by the cynical charletans who claim purity on this issue.

As for using the word "leftist," it is simply a label. I use it as an alternative to "liberal" because I am not hearing much of anything here that is liberal. I am, however, open to suggestions as to what may be preferable. My aim in using the label is not to insult but merely for convenience.

Yes it sounds like SOME Dems are getting racism ready as an excuse if their over-enthusiasm for BO turns out to lose.

Certainly, among my fellow Jewish (and Italian) New Yorkers, I hear a lot of people saying that they feel worried that a Schvartze wlll stick up for his own people too much. Orthodox Jews make a big point that a Schvartze won't support Israel much, and the religious Republicans have been good to Israel. Other people question BO's support from "anti-Semites."

That stuff and other stuff amount to some kind of racism.

Many people are unable to transcend group dynamics feelings. YOU can probably. I can definitely.

But I myself have had a sinking feeling that BO somehow doesn't feel fire in his gut about terrorists or energy or Globalist threats to American safety and prosperity. I see Mc as equally naive about Globalism and favoritism towards plutocrats. I wonder how tough Democrats like FDR, HST, LBJ have been scorned by a Party that seems more agitated over issues involving gays and low test scores for Blacks.

I think you are over-reacting to the charges of racist obstacles by journos like Weisberg. Those obstacles are there.

My main aversions to Mc are his opposition to abortion rights, his favoritism towards the very wealthy, his apparent intention to put rightists on The Courts, and all the other reactionary GOP stuff. BO is much smarter, too. And Mc is too old.

Sovereign, I took a look at this thread. Ben338 and Teleologicus will perpetually fill out their texts with code words and some of the fluffiest language on the Slate.

Teleologicus has clearly spent too much time in his fantasy library or his mother's basement and grinds out the kind of obfuscation that passes for philosophical language among professional agoraphobics in the late 20th century. Actually there are some pretty hilarious sites on the web that specialize in deciphering this kind of language.

And Ben338, bless his heart, does what you noted....inventing statements and stats and further defending what he thinks is racially cloaked language by labeling his "adversaries." Further reading does suggest monomania but the self-important references, the grandiosity, the omniscience.......well, they are indicative of a number personality disorders and dittoheads.

So my advice is "move on". Of course, Ben338 would say that I'm obviously a member of Moveon.org. There is no possibility of rational discussion with these characters and the more you try, the more discouraging it becomes since they are obviously literate but unable to read. (have at it, Teleologicus)

I confess to enabling their delusions by responding to some of their more bizarre rationalizations but it was all in good fun unless they have weapons.

Regards

dadu (aka the leftist, liberal, fellow traveler, etc, etc.)

Dadu, dadu, dadu,

What can I say? Monomania, self-importance, grandiosity, omniscience -- pot meet kettle? Dittohead? I would hardly describe myself as one of those.

Inventing statements and statistics -- not on your life. Disraeli said something to the effect that there are lies, damn lies and statistics. His point was that you can find statistics to support almost any argument. The statements and statistics I have cited are correct -- look them up if you feel the need. How the same statistics are analyzed and which statistics are emphasized will lead the conservative and the leftist to entirely different conclusions, both of which may logically follow from the premises chosen. I am a conservative, so I see things in a particular way. You are not a conservative, so you see the same things differently.

The difference between us is that I conclude that I am right and you are wrong, but accept that your ideas are logically consistent and based in reality as you perceive it. I celebrate the fact that we are able to have differences of opinion as a triumph of our system of government. I do not denigrate my opponents in an ad hominem fashion by calling them stupid or illogical or saying that they have a personality disorder or are evil. I simply say that they are wrong, because I believe in my convictions. The beauty of our system is that our votes will cancel out each other.