Our income has fluctuated but it has really ramped up in the last couple of years, but this year it is heading down. Total income this year will be around $230,000, 2007 it was $300,000, 2006 it was $240,000, 2005 $190,000, 2004 $180,000. In 2003 we were not married and my income was $38,000 and my spouses was $110,000. We bought a house for $400,000 and it's probably worth about $500,000. We earn a lot of money but we don't have a lot of money; assets other than the house and retirement plans is nominal. We have paid off a lot of debt including school loans and we were hit with some significant medical bills, but we also have a good life and spend a good amount of money on entertaining friends and on our vacation.We work our asses off (my spouse works enough for two plus jobs) and pay a significant sum in taxes (between federal, state and everyting else we are paying close to 50% in taxes).

We are certainly well off, but we don't qualify as rich, and we are certainly not wealthy. If our earnings stay around this level for a few more years we would qualify as rich, but our incomes can just as easily go up as go down and if one of us loses their job, which actually looks likely right now, our income will drop significantly. In the past ten years my income has gone up down and all over the place. I made more money in 1998, 99, and 90, than I made in 02, 03, and 04. I've gone from the top 10%, to the bottom 20%, up to the bottom 40%, and finally to the top 2%, and we can just as easily fall back down. Between college, graduate school, continuing education classes, 80 to 100 hour work weeks, the equity in both time and money put into our earning potentials has been significant.

$250,000 thousands dollars is not a middle class salary, and it certianly buys more than a middle class life style, but it takes a number of years earning that type of money to qualify one as rich.

Lucky for you, your income taxes go up and down as your income does. Clever plan, that!

As to your point that you are not "rich": I have no quarrel with that since the word is meant to refer to your accumulated assets rather than your income. There unfortunately isn't a single word (at least one I can think of at the moment) that refers to a high income, so people tend to say "rich".

Why anybody has a $300,000 house. Unless that "house" includes 80 acres of land, or something like that. As I said in an earlier post, I bought a house when I was 24 and made $12 per hour, and I live in that house today -- and my wife and I are in a similar economic condition to you and your wife. I work with people like you and I who have cars that cost more per month than my house does.

I will say that I grew up very, very poor (trailer trash poor...literally). And I, like you, know that it's just as possible to go down as up. Knowing that, I've always chosen to live at a level that was confortable, but very, very sustainable. If I lost my job and couldn't find another for an indefinate period of time, I really don't care. I could pay my bills on a McDonald's salary. Sure, I'd have to cut out a LOT of entertainment spending, but that's it. My life would be largely unchanged.

And you know what else that buys me? Freedom. I really don't have to please anybody -- it's as if I'm completely financially independent. If my boss looks at me cross eyed, I'm out. Piss on him, I don't need him. My peers are going around playing politics and kissing ass until their lips chap; but not me. I could give a shit, honestly. And that's allowed me to be successful far in excess of what I'd ever hoped -- I've got nothing to lose, so I can take chances.

As I said earlier -- part of the problem is $300,000 houses. People drive my your subdivision and get pissed. They don't know why you get the gated community, and they get the ghetto (or, a 50 year old sprawling suburb). It makes them jealous, and makes all of us a mark for their attempts to get the government to take more from us. They don't think we work that hard, in the first place (and, in honesty, they're often right. I play lots of golf in the name of "relationship building"...a bunch of B. S., and we all know it). They don't think we deserve it (they're wrong, I damn near killed myself to get where I am). But as long as people buy the biggest damn house they can find, and the most expensive import car they can possibly afford, and $150 jeans...all that crap...then other people will get jealous and they will use whatever power they have to knock you off your "high horse".

When I was growing up, there was a rule: when you bought something nice, you drove the box somewhere else to throw it away. Why? Because you didn't want to advertise what you had. That's just good life advise, in my opinion.

Maybe if you bought an affordable house or rented, and cut out the entertaining your friends, then you'd feel rich. I'd love to make even $60,000 right now. As a single young woman w/ no children, and only student loan debt, rent, cell phone, groceries and transportation, I could easily live nicely, pay off my debt and save on $60,000. The key is to live below your means until you can at least build up a nice cushion.

Buying caviar and expensive cuts of meat and crudite for your dinner parties and taking expensive vacations is counterintuitive to what you should be doing. Remember that to whom much is given, much is expected. If you don't know what to do with your wealth, then I'd love to have it so I can show you how it's done.

And before you and the other peanuts tell me that I need to work hard, I already do. I work full time in my office. I'm not a manager yet, but I'm not at the complete bottom. Since the raises I got don't completely leave me enough to be responsible and play, I'm more responsible with what I do have and I only use so-called disposable income every now and then.

I agree with you it takes a number of years to qualify a $250k income as meaningful wealth.

Which to me means that, as you, debt paid down, and investments are made such that money will earn for you. I myself am standing a few steps back from that thresh hold and hope the current economic pains don't hold me back. I'm a self-employed general contractor. Three years into it, and still trying to get things going. I'm doing all my own work, mostly kitchens and baths. But, last year I put on a home and garage addition, which aided me greatly. This year has been the pits, not even half the earnings of last, and that is why I'm wondering about the current slump.

I need to be willing to hire employees to get larger jobs, and I don't desire to do that. It's already a huge job to do the work and the paperwork along with it. So, if one can be described as earing ones income, I emphatically state I qualify. (Today my 4 year olds preschool has two day's off), So, I'm doing some down time activity.

Anyway, since you described yourself, I followed suit.

I hope you don't find yourself in dire straights this or next year, and good luck for the future.

I'm not entirely sure if you're aware of the struggle that most people in this country are facing...

They'd LOVE to be able to pay for their medical bills. They'd LOVE to afford *continuing* education, while still paying off a 1/2 million dollar mortgage and old student loans. They'd LOVE the opportunity to "fluctuate" into the top 2%, if even for a year, whereas you complain about not always being in that top 2%? And I would guess that you're not making payments on your cars... I would further guess that the words "cars" is appropriate for your situation. And while I admit that this is also pure speculation, I'm going to assume that they're not used cars either.

Your 50% of taxes paid, assuming your figuring is correct and that you make $250,000, leaves you with $125,000 take-home pay. The average take-home pay per American household is around $42,700, and that's only with federal taxes deducted, so the actual amount is a few thousand lower, at least. Not even including state and local taxes, your net income is three times an average household... keeping in mind that this means 1/2 the people are making less than that median.

Yes sir. You ARE rich. That you have decided to overextend yourselves, rather than wait until you build liquidity, is nobody's fault but your own. These decisions you've made do not justify Bush tax policies.

My house is worth about 400k. It is 3 br, 2 bath, has a dated kitchen and is an hour outside of Boston.

I don't know where you live, but where I live 400k is nothing special and most families need two incomes just to make ends meet. That second income of course makes you rich because, so you can now feel free to pay AMT.

Get with me in 10 years, and update us as to your progress on living within your means. I do...but I feel very lonely out here. It's very uncommon to see people make a dollar more without watching them spending a dollar more (or, maybe $1.03).

I'm glad for you beer-dude, but I think you have a situation outside the current trend. You noted much of that trend to your dissatisfaction within your own post. I read it.

It's true from my take, that American's live way outside their means. But, it's also true that the marketing forces, banking, unacceptable debt management choices, an unsatisfactory system to assign credit worthiness, and no flexibility with regard to repayment, has created the challenge. In other words, the American lifestyle creates the American debt.

You had some choices that gave you a stable place to live, that was within your means. One within which you like the neighborhood. How many within the cities and suburbs live in their homes long enough (in the past 20 yrs) for them to be within your category. I do. I've lived in my first home with my family for 15 yrs and hope to for another. But I know that's not the average.

That's perhaps what you need to "get"?

$400k @ 5.75% would cost you $2,334 per month. Add taxes and insurance on that, and you're probably paying about $3,000 per month for your house. Not to be too condenscending, but that's $36k per year, just for a place to live. I don't care where you live, that's a lot of money. Just a quick look shows houses around Boston averaging $206k...which is just above the national average ($200k).

What's the additional $200k buying you? I can't say for sure...but I do know it's buying you a higher tax bill, because your pissing people off.

So you're saying that there's something in the credit scoring system that requires people to live outside of their means (or...to the highest extent of their means, which is primarily where I have a gripe)?

Dude, don't get me wrong...I'm all about golf and nice lawns and hot neighbor's wives with big fake boobs and all that. It's not that I like my part of town better than theirs, it's that I don't think that neighbor boobs are worth another $300k. I'm not even sure a significantly lower chance of being robbed is worth $300k extra.

And, let's be really honest: I don't believe that people spend $400k, or more, for a house because it's "safer", or the schools are "better", or any of that crap people say. People move in to those neighborhoods to avoid blacks...or Mexicans (depending the "problem" in your area).

Honestly, if you think your income of 200-300k doesn't qualify you as rich, then the thing you are working hardest at is trying to be unhappy.

I'm 35, I bought my house about 9 years ago now for $225,000 and have paid it off. I have enough saved in my 401k right now that if I stopped working there's a fair chance I could make it through retirement with the money.

We don't scrimp and save every penny. Heck, we buy our groceries at Whole Foods and have taken vacations in Europe every year since 1998. Yeah, I enjoy my life a lot and compared to 98% of the US (and, what, 99.9% of the world?) our lives are insanely good.

So, yes, I feel rich, even though I don't have own a Gulfstream, or own private island in the south pacific, or even make $250k/year.

If you DON'T feel rich with an income north of $250k/year then you're doing it wrong.

Beer-dude,

Another wonder from me, is if you'll "get" that American's have just been through a national real estate feeding frenzy?

Every street in America has a home which was sold for an exorbitantly over-value price, for which a broker salivated, a bank looked upon indifferently and regulators ignored.

Blame is spread across the board, and I'm not one of those trapped, so I am not whining for myself. I see the big picture and am asking you to allow that Americans who are trapped are not all indifferent to their choices. Perhaps indifferent isn't to the point, but maybe stating that to many trapped home owners were incapable of knowing the traps being layed for them by unscrupulous Realtors and the realty institution.

Have you read no stories pertaining to the realty scams all around us?

Very cool!

The dream proclaimed!

Good to know!

Good for you!

I drive a $20,000 truck I bought 3 years ago, but my spouse drives a $40,000 import. We have a 300,000 mortgage, but could have qualfied for a $800,000 mortgage. The house we live in is nice, but it is not nicer than the house I ended my childhood in, which is worth about $150,000 right now. I do almost all the work on the house myself, and I do all the cooking. We don't eat caviar or buy $50 dollar bottles of wine. We tend to pick up the check with friends a little more than is prudent and we do tend to splurge on vacation, but we work very hard and like to relax and enjoy ourselves the one time a year we can take time off together.