enter the fray: our reader discussion forum
Search in:
Advanced
View:FlatThreaded
Bigger Social Problems
by snorkweezl

The reason that drunk driving isn't such a big deal in Europe is not because people respect alcohol and don't binge drink to the point of stupidity. Of COURSE they do. But they have fewer drunk driving accidents because fewer people drive. Between astronomical gas prices (we have seen nothing to compare in this country) and efficient public transit, there isn't such an idealized notion of the automobile as national icon.
This country has launched itself into a dangerously unsustainable love affair with suburban sprawl that more or less guarantees that we will always need vehicles, that we will always be dependent on foreign oil to some degree, that we will always have to drive to happy hour and that we will always have to drive home afterwards. Then we wonder why we have such devastatingly high numbers of drunk driving accidents. I'm a proponent of personal responsibility and I'm not advocating for or excusing anyone who drives drunk. But if we want to lower the numbers, we have to create a better public transit infrastructure in this country so that people don't have to drive in the first place.
I agree with others on the driving age component. 16 is too young to drive. Vehicles need to be treated with the same respect as any deadly weapon, and driving is not a privilege that we should be extending to minors. There needs to be far more stringent licensing requirements, driver training and competency testing, and as I said before, we need public transit alternatives so that the many many people who don't like to drive, are not confident behind the wheel and who would rather not drive, don't have to.
As far as campus binging goes, I don't see a solution. It's part of college culture, one I never understood particularly, but one that certainly isn't new and isn't going anywhere. Animal House has been around for a long time now, and it satirized college drinking trends that predated its 1978 release by nearly two decades, back when the drinking age was 18. I don't believe for a moment that changing the drinking age would make a lick of difference in ending that particular trend.
I do, however, believe that the drinking age should be 18. It's purely a justice thing. If that's when you're deemed capable of voting and serving in the military, that's when you should be allowed to drink too.

Re: Bigger Social Problems
by luc0815
I agree with almost everything here. However, in Europe binge drinking is NOT an intrinsic part of college life (alcohol consume certainly, but not binge drinking).
Re: Bigger Social Problems
by Doc Holliday
"But if we want to lower the numbers, we have to create a better public transit infrastructure in this country so that people don't have to drive in the first place."

Nice idea, but you do realize that being drunk in "public" is illegal in all fifty states? That would include when riding public transportation.

Furthermore, while I agree we are in love with "suburban sprawl," the reason Europe isn't is their lack of space. Given the amount of space we have available, (Ever driven from Billings, MT to Cheyenne, WY? We are talking about 6+ hours, at 75MPH, of nothing), it is unreasonable - at this point - to expect that we will start building/living on top of each other like they do in Europe.

There are about a million and a half people in Montana and Wyoming, spread over VAST distances. Let's not even talk about the number of people in Alaska and the area they live in. Building public transportation in these relative wildernesses is not only highly impractical, but would be financially disastrous.

"I agree with others on the driving age component. 16 is too young to drive. Vehicles need to be treated with the same respect as any deadly weapon, and driving is not a privilege that we should be extending to minors."

An automobile is a "deadly weapon." We embrace that in our laws against vehicular manslaughter. What is a "minor," exactly? Is that 18 or 21? How does the difference of a minute - the time between midnight of the day before their birthday to 12:01AM on the day of their birthday - make a difference in the mental maturity of a person? Why is 16 a bad age to begin driving? If 'wisdom comes with age,' why do adults drive drunk?

"There needs to be far more stringent licensing requirements, driver training and competency testing, and as I said before, we need public transit alternatives so that the many many people who don't like to drive, are not confident behind the wheel and who would rather not drive, don't have to."

I love the argument that we need more restrictions, training, et cetera. Get real. People who drive drunk can be the most highly trained and tested individuals in existence. They are driving drunk, they are impaired, it doesn't make any difference how trained or tested they are. As far as public transportation is concerned, it exists in the largest metropolitan areas of the US. It is impractical and financially unfeasible in the other areas of he country. No one in the US would ever admit that they are not "confident behind the wheel," this would cause immediate banishment from a society that worships the automobile.

"Animal House has been around for a long time now, and it satirized college drinking trends that predated its 1978 release by nearly two decades, back when the drinking age was 18."

"Animal House" satirized drinking in 1962, when the drinking and voting age was 21.

"I do, however, believe that the drinking age should be 18. It's purely a justice thing. If that's when you're deemed capable of voting and serving in the military, that's when you should be allowed to drink too."

Wow, in one fell swoop, you just invalidated all your other arguments, by saying justice is more important than rationality.

Re: Bigger Social Problems
by snorkweezl

You've clearly never been clubbing in Oxford city center on a Friday night...

However, I don't disagree with you, and I don't believe I mentioned the issue specifically of binge drinking in reference to college students in Europe. I was talking about the instances of drunk driving in Europe and why those numbers are lower than they are here, and what MADD should be campaigning for in order to bring our numbers down too, so that the rest of us can have a drinking age that is just and that makes sense, while still being able to commute safely.
I believe for so many reasons that this country needs to build an infrastructure of efficient public transit. Put all the struggling American Car manufacturers to work building and maintaining public transit systems...jobs that will stay in this country, and that will help us to become more energy independent. There needs to be a viable alternative to driving, and once we have that in place, we need much stiffer penalties for those who still choose to drink and drive. No more of this silly two hours in jail and then a day or two of community service.

Re: Bigger Social Problems
by Doc Holliday
"Put all the struggling American Car manufacturers to work building and maintaining public transit systems...jobs that will stay in this country, and that will help us to become more energy independent."

Would somebody PLEASE explain to me how we are supposed to build "public transit systems" in the wide open spaces that are America?

Public transportation works in urban areas. It doesn't work in White Sulphur Springs, Montana, (look on a map before you reply). How would you pay for building, say, light rail in a town of less than one thousand? Or, are you saying that your solution - public transit - is only worth it when there are enough people living in an area to pay for it? How are we going to prevent high school students in White Sulphur Springs from driving drunk, if the community can't afford public transit?

"No more of this silly two hours in jail and then a day or two of community service.'

I am not sure where you live, but once you are arrested, you are going to be held until you are sober - at least 4-8 hours. Just so the cops can protect themselves against getting sued for letting a drunk out of their control. The drunk driving laws in the US range from severe to draconian to completely unreasonable, (look at AZ's laws for instance, which, essentially, end a repeat offender's life as a contributing member of society even if one goes completely sober). They have not, and will not, prevent drunken driving.

Building public transit and toughening up drunken driving laws are knee jerk responses to the perceived problem of drunken driving. I am not saying that drunken driving is not a problem - it is. I just have to wonder whether increasingly punitive laws are the answer. Drunk driving is bad, but do we really want to try to prevent it with laws that never seem to work? Shouldn't we try something else?
Re: Bigger Social Problems
by snorkweezl

West bumblefuck places like White Sulphur Springs wouldn't get public transit. Public transit is for places where people actually want to live.

And seriously, fifteen posts today to just this article? Go do something with your life.

Re: Bigger Social Problems
by once
Every single study I've ever seen says that German university students have a much higher rate of binge-drinking than American students. The documented binge-drinking rates are absolutely horrific among Russian students. The difference is in their attitude: they drink six beers at a two-hour party as if that were a perfectly reasonable thing to do. They don't make a big show out of it.
Re: Bigger Social Problems
by Doc Holliday
So, basically, you are saying that - unless you have a lot of people and a lot of money - there is no solution to the problem of drunken driving.


Re: Bigger Social Problems
by snorkweezl

I don't know about alcohol use in universities, but alcoholism generally seems to be a disproportionately bigger problem in Russia than in the US, with binge drinking among young adolescent males (often starting as young as 13) being a particularly troubling statistic. Go here for more: <link>

This reaffirms my belief that drinking age is an arbitrary variable in alcohol consumption. I think it has much more to do with cultural perceptions of alcohol.

Re: Bigger Social Problems
by Doc Holliday
Approximately 50% of the population of the US lives in other than urban areas. So, I guess you are saying that 50% of the population doesn't get to participate in your perceived "solutions" (or non-solutions, as the case may be) to the problem of drunk driving... Real enlightened...

"Go do something with your life."

When you have nothing productive to say, I guess this works...
View as RSS news feed in XML