...have no reason to vote Democratic this year. Those who thought they did need to listen to Biden's speech again. He clearly and unequivocably disabused you of the notion that an Obama/Biden administration has any intentions at all of pursuing peace.

That's right, folks. We're going to leave just enough troops in Iraq for al Sadr to surround and eliminate, And we're going to finally search the hills of Afghanistan for bin Laden. If we don't find him there, we're moving into Pakistan.

Bin Laden has no functioning kidneys. He either went home to Saudi Arabia where he could get regular, quality renal dialysis sessions, or he's almost certainly dead. People without kidneys don't last seven years without quality renal dialysis.

Pakistan just impeached Musharrif. Inconvenient, I know, as we just spent billions buying Musharrif and putting him in our pocket, but there it is. And considering what Pelosi did with Kuchinich's impeachment bill, arguably they have a healthier republic--or, if you prefer, a healthier "democracy"--than we do.

So, people of peace. The choice is clear. We had two honest, peace-loving candidates, Kuchinich and Paul, and we followed the media's lead as if on a leash and laughed them both out of town. And now we have a choice--vote for McCain and expand the war in the south into the semi-functional republic of Iran, or vote for Obama and expand the war in the north into the fully functional republic of Pakistan. And all in the name of "spreading democracy".

If you want to vote for peace, doing either is throwing your vote away. How did we get here, people? Is there any person of peace who was paying attention during this election season? Vote Demopublican or Republicrat and the military industrial complex wins--and we lose. Heck of a job, people.

...but I'll still vote Obama and hope for the best, if only because he's an better alternative than McCain. The latter has already promised us more extreme Conservatives on the bench, for one thing. And he's likely to get us into further wars, starting with Iran.

I voted Nader in 2000, not going that route again. It's a wasted vote, essentially. Nice boost for one's feelings of righteousness, but doesn't help get the job done.

Perhaps you might consider the art of compromise.

It's quite clear that McCain is spoiling for a fight and believes that war - any war... EVERY war is a great thing. He's spoiling to fight Iran, his rhetoric seems to be leading us towards a new cold war, etc...

Meanwhile Obama actually opposed the war in Iraq from the start.

He supports continuing to root out Al-Queda, and he supports RE-liberating Afganistan (since Bush fucked that up)... but the level of conquest isn't there.

With Obama you're looking at basically ~1/50th the total violence that is proposed.

And so you'll throw a tantrum and vote 3rd party?

A lot of extreme environmentalists decided that they couldn't support Gore because he didn't campaign specifically in the way they would have preferred, and voted for Nader... Had even 1% of those people in Florida chosen to actually compromise, we would have had Al Gore (nobel lauriate for his championing of the environment) instead of George Bush (one of the 2 most environmentally destructive administrations in the history of our nation)...

Sometimes you can't get every single thing you want in life... That doesn't mean that there are choices that are not clearly better than others.

Vote 3rd party if you wish, but if your state is lost by a close margin, that may mess with you for the rest of your life.

Horus:

I voted Nader in 2000, not going that route again. It's a wasted vote, essentially. Nice boost for one's feelings of righteousness, but doesn't help get the job done.

A wasted vote or a wasted conscience. The so-called two-party system is leaving us cold yet again. Too bad there's not less concern about wasted votes and more concern about voting your conscience no matter what. Then less people might waste their votes on these prosperity-preaching corporatists and these peace-preaching closet warmongers.

Tundrayeti:

Vote 3rd party if you wish, but if your state is lost by a close margin, that may mess with you for the rest of your life.

Ah, yes, the ancient propaganda. 1/50th as much war, you guess hapazardly, apparently ignorant of the Soviets' experience with Afghanistan. We aren't overthrowing the elected government of Pakistan because of any power trips, you say...

Avoiding voting for warhawks will not bother my conscience, friend.

Perhaps not, but by scuttling Obama you make war with Iran and possibly Russia all but inevitable. Politics is the art of compromise, and so long as you ensure the general movement is towards the positive, you at least have a realistic chance of reaching a goal that might be overly idealistic at present.

Imagine you're playing Chess and you're about to put your opponent in checkmate, but he finds a way to wriggle out of it by sacrificing his queen. Would you not settle for the lesser goal of taking the queen and see that as a positive and realistic step in the right direction?

quillsinister:

Perhaps not, but by scuttling Obama you make war with Iran and possibly Russia all but inevitable. Politics is the art of compromise, and so long as you ensure the general movement is towards the positive, you at least have a realistic chance of reaching a goal that might be overly idealistic at present.

Imagine you're playing Chess and you're about to put your opponent in checkmate, but he finds a way to wriggle out of it by sacrificing his queen. Would you not settle for the lesser goal of taking the queen and see that as a positive and realistic step in the right direction?

I don't see us getting the Military Industrial Complex's queen. We get sick of the Republicans pandering to them and the Democrats pander to them, too, so what can we do but either opt out or encourage them?

People who are sick of the federal bureaucracy have been voting Republican for years expecting them to reduce it and let the states do things for themselves--and more efficiently. The Republicans have expanded the bureaucracy time after time. You saying that a vote for the Obama/Biden Move the War North ticket is a step "in the right direction" is, to my mind, just as blind as a conservative voting for McCain praying for smaller federal government. Biden says it won't work. Why wouldn't you believe him?

"by scuttling Obama you make war with Iran and possibly Russia all but inevitable"

Russia and Iran both have significant say in that.

Not really, so long as the sum total of our diplomatic repertoire consists of, "Do as I say or I'll attack you." They're not going to just do as we say, and we offer no reason why they should aside from the threat of regime change; a threat which is starting to sound pretty hollow, I might add.

"our diplomatic repertoire consists of, "Do as I say or I'll attack you."

Unmoderated alarmist rubbish.

And while you two split hairs, the wars continue and will continue. And the debt rises and we become ever more obviously the dying but still mean as hell empire.

Split hairs. Lay on guilt trips specially tailored to those who would opt out. Biden promised war last night. I haven't heard anyone deny it yet.

You left out all those chunks of falling sky.

thewolf05827:

You left out all those chunks of falling sky.

Cute attempt at deflection, but unless you've been living under a rock you know many people are counting on being able to vote their displeasure at our incessant imperialistic warmongering. Not with an Obama vote, they can't. Care to address the issue, or did you just want to engage in exercises in demagoguery?

"You saying that a vote for the Obama/Biden Move the War North ticket is a step "in the right direction" is, to my mind, just as blind as a conservative voting for McCain praying for smaller federal government. Biden says it won't work. Why wouldn't you believe him?"

You misunderstand me. I personally see no reason to be at war anywhere right now, and war is my profession! I think the U.S. military should be used only in the event of the invasion of the Unites States or a partner nation like England. And invasion, mind you, not some businessmen with political connections trying to protect their overseas investments. I think the War on Terror should be handled mostly by INTERPOL and the FBI. I think that a primarily cultural conflict should be settled with primarily cultural weapons. In short, my GWOT wouldn't be a GWOT at all. I have to recognize though, that as much as I hate it, the military-industrial complex won't be broken by anything short of either armed revolution or something like Smedley Butler's Peace Amendment... which would probably have to be implemented by an armed revolution, or at least a serious threat of one.

My only point is that, in this election, the difference between the greater and lesser evil is actually a good deal more than it usually is. The Gore vs. Dubya comparison is apt. Sure, from an environmental standpoint, maybe Nader would have been better. But wouldn't Gore have been a lot better than Dubya? And Nader's votes were all from people who would have been Gore voters otherwise.

I see what you're saying, and I admit that it is a sad, nasty compromise. In this case, though, I'd say it's justified.

BTW, if you haven't read General Butler's writing, you should. You'd love him.