Women do not need to behave in a certain way in order to expect respectful discourse in the MSM on their candidacy.

Fact: No male political candidate or office holder has ever been called "bastard" by "the best political team on TV" .

Until I see the same discourse, I will remain angry with the MSM and all other higher institutions that engaged in the same or kept quiet about it.

At this very moment, I cannot endorse Obama because of reasons that have nothing to do with Hillary. He lacks experience and authenticity, in my opinion, and does not seem strong enough in himself to select a strong VP whether that person is Hillary or Biden. If Obama loses this election, and his lag in the current polls, is not due to these Hillary Harridans, although we will be a convenient scapegoat. He has other huge issues with many voters.

Reproductive issues are passe for us angry, shrill, old, deranged, menopausal women. Let the young Obamamaniacs work to maintain what we put in place for them and accomplish something other than disrespect for their elder sisters.

Umm what female candidate has been call a fag, or a muslim, or Osama?

It is strange the selective delicacy of the Hil fans.

Do you seriously believe that the MSM caused a Hillary voter to become an Obama supporter> Hillary did not have 100% of the Democratic voter going in. She was sure to lose some of her lead when voters were able to listen to the other candidates.

Hillary should have campaigned from day one as herself and not listened to her advisers who were telling her to be one thing one day and another the next.

It is one thing to support your candidate and even understandable that you would feed into the hype about experience but the truth is neither Hillary or Obama has any foreign policy, executive or economic experience and in the end we would have had to depend on their judgement.

wrb:

Umm what female candidate has been call a fag, or a muslim, or Osama? It is strange the selective delicacy of the Hil fans.

Let's look at a few of the choicer words I've seen used to describe Clinton in the last few months.

"Bitch" was pretty common, as was "dyke" (I supposed that would be the equivilent of "fag"), and "whore". A group opposing her candidacy was called "CUNT". Tucker Carlson on MSNBC commented how he instinctively crossed his legs whenever he heard her voice. Hillary Clinton nutcrackers were available for sale. In NY, buttons proclaiming "Bros before Hos" were sold and worn at Obama rallies.

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I cannot endorse Obama because of reasons that have nothing to do with Hillary. He lacks experience and authenticity, in my opinion, and does not seem strong enough in himself to select a strong VP whether that person is Hillary or Biden.

But the issue in this election is not whether Obama is a perfect, or even a good, candidate. The question is whether one would prefer the next four years be an Obama administration or a McCain administration.

I've had my preferred primary candidates lose. I've voted unenthusiastically in general election after general election because I had to make the choice given what was in front of me. If I really thought one candidate would not do a better job than the other, I could understand sitting out. But looking at energy policy, tax policy, health care policy, Supreme Court appointments, I find it hard to see how someone could look at McCain and Obama and argue that it doesn't matter who wins.

We have to act on the choices we have, or accept the consequences of not choosing.

ravnwing:

wrb:

Umm what female candidate has been call a fag, or a muslim, or Osama? It is strange the selective delicacy of the Hil fans.

Let's look at a few of the choicer words I've seen used to describe Clinton in the last few months.

"Bitch" was pretty common, as was "dyke" (I supposed that would be the equivilent of "fag"), and "whore". A group opposing her candidacy was called "CUNT". Tucker Carlson on MSNBC commented how he instinctively crossed his legs whenever he heard her voice. Hillary Clinton nutcrackers were available for sale. In NY, buttons proclaiming "Bros before Hos" were sold and worn at Obama rallies.

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Where do you live? That kind of language would NEVER get on the air in the Midwest! (Well, maybe Chicago...)

dsimon:

We have to act on the choices we have, or accept the consequences of not choosing.

I've never really heard it said better.

I had one of these Hillary supporters (and I voted for her, still support her, but am voting Obama since she isn't running) tell me that they were voting McCain because they were a centrist democrat who's number 1, 2, and 3 issues were Iraq, the war on terror, and national security and they felt McCain would do a better job than Obama. They felt Hillary was just hawkish enough to vote for, but Obama wasn't. At least THEY had a reason they could explain.

But it seems to me, that if we went back in time to before the primary, that 95% of these people would have voted Obama over McCain if presented with nothing but their platforms (no history, no context, no bias). For those people... well I'd love an explanation from them as to why the future of their country is less important than hurt feelings.

Things I'd like to see
1) These Hillary turned McCain voters STOP saying they don't like Obama... we get it. I don't either. I voted Hillary. What I'd like to start hearing is why you think McCain is better. Stop telling me Obama is inexperienced, I didn't vote for him either. If you want your vote to be taken as anything other than a giant whine please tell us why you think McCain is better. And just to pre-empt, no you don't "owe" me an explanation, but if you didn't want to talk about it you wouldn't be here...

2) I'd like Obama supporters to try to make their point without ripping up old wounds. Just like how I said the Hillary supporters for McCain people should explain their feelings about Obama vs McCain without rehashing Hillary vs Obama... so should you make your points without doing the same. Instead of telling them that they are being hysterical, or that Hillary wasn't the victim of sexism (which if they believe, you won't change their minds, and you'll only make them more angry) try explaining to them why you think McCain is the wrong choice for this country.

3) To the people that want to stay home... sure it's your choice to stay home... but it's not a choice to be proud of. If you are dissatisfied with the choices you have, try to fight and make them better next time. But inaction is worse than making the wrong action.

4) And finally, if you actually are a Hillary 2012 person... well I don't really know what to say because the logic of voting for McCain in hopes that Hillary will run again is too twisted to analyze.

I watched a TON of "the best in the business" during the primaries. I don't recall them or any other news outlet using the words dyke, bitch, whore, to describe Clinton. I do recall that a majority of their analysts, reporters, etc... were women.

Plus, it's not as if the MSM is particularly nice to male candidates--Kerry was effeminate, Edwards vain, Gore robotic, Obama was a closet Muslim terrorist supporter with no cojones--male candidates often have their masculinity called into question with slurs of homosexuality, or being a wimp. Plus, many of the slurs against Clinton came from the right, not from her fellow Democrats.

I do recall McCain calling Hillary a dyke "Why is Chelsea ugly? Because Janet Reno is her father" What is funny is all this misogyny has been coming from the likes of Rush for years and now those he called feminazis are letting him play them like puppets. "Some people repeated the mean things Rush originated, so now we're going to vote for Rush's candidate as revenge"

Ridry,

Very good points. As for #2, I think the animosity that some Clinton and Obama supporters have for each other is the result of a false attribution of the remarks of a few to the entire group, especially in the Internet age. Those that take the trouble to post online can be the most passionate and least logical on any subject, and I think there is an innate human tendency to say "if one person in this group feels this way, then the rest do too." We see it in politics all the time (Reverend Wright speaks for the black community, Osama bin Laden shows what most Muslims really think, Palestinian suicide bombers show they don't really want peace, supporters of Israeli settlement expansion show they really don't want peace, etc.).

Most people on both sides are reasonable. But it only takes a few frothing-at-the-mouth posts to get a lot of people on the other side to start thinking "those folks are crazy!" We all need to resist this temptation because (1) it's simply not true and (2) it greatly ratchets up the difficulty of having a rational conversation, finding common ground, and agreeing to disagree.

Of course, it would help if passionate supporters realized that personal attacks and disrespectful attitudes aren't likely to change anyone's mind.

Ridry:

Things I'd like to see
1) These Hillary turned McCain voters STOP saying they don't like Obama... we get it. I don't either. I voted Hillary. What I'd like to start hearing is why you think McCain is better. Stop telling me Obama is inexperienced, I didn't vote for him either. If you want your vote to be taken as anything other than a giant whine please tell us why you think McCain is better. And just to pre-empt, no you don't "owe" me an explanation, but if you didn't want to talk about it you wouldn't be here...

2) I'd like Obama supporters to try to make their point without ripping up old wounds. Just like how I said the Hillary supporters for McCain people should explain their feelings about Obama vs McCain without rehashing Hillary vs Obama... so should you make your points without doing the same. Instead of telling them that they are being hysterical, or that Hillary wasn't the victim of sexism (which if they believe, you won't change their minds, and you'll only make them more angry) try explaining to them why you think McCain is the wrong choice for this country.

3) To the people that want to stay home... sure it's your choice to stay home... but it's not a choice to be proud of. If you are dissatisfied with the choices you have, try to fight and make them better next time. But inaction is worse than making the wrong action.

4) And finally, if you actually are a Hillary 2012 person... well I don't really know what to say because the logic of voting for McCain in hopes that Hillary will run again is too twisted to analyze.

1. AMEN.

2. As an Obama supporter (and a white post-menopausal woman), I wish that the "Hillary Harridans" would concede that there's not more than a millimeter in difference in Hillary's positions and Obama's positions during the campaign. Further, damn it, I WANTED a woman as president. But I didn't want Hillary!

Look, the reason I supported Obama over Hillary was simple. I mistrusted her tendency for secrecy and overly-controlling behavior, and she made some bad choices in her management of the campaign. (Really, now. Mark Penn? Harold Ickes?). And, let's talk about her Senate record, when she could have stood against the tide and voted against the resolution to go to war with Iraq. She didn't, she failed to acknowledge that it was a mistake and she continued to not deal with it. Her lack of honesty over the Serbian sniper issue was another huge strike. I understand that politicians like to shade the truth. But that was more than a huge shading of the truth, and everyone knows it.

And then there's Bill. HUGE millstone. Yes, good president but do you really think Hillary would have kept his fingers out of the pie? And do you really think that more of his antics wouldn't have come to the top?

It had nothing to do with Tucker Carlson's idiotic leg-crossing behavior or Chris Matthews' stupidity or even that knucklehead David Schuster's "pimping" comment. Give the Obama supporters a bit more credit!

Am I happy with the way Obama has behaved since the end of the primaries? Hell no. I have even flirted with the notion that we should have nominated Hillary after all. But what's done is done, and it's time to move on.

3. AMEN!!! and...

4. AMEN AGAIN!

"I watched a TON of "the best in the business" during the primaries. I don't recall them or any other news outlet using the words dyke, bitch, whore, to describe Clinton. I do recall that a majority of their analysts, reporters, etc... were women." You need to watch some Cafferty and Mathews clips. They both used 'bitch' when I was watching. I occasionally watch Fox News for a laugh and let me tell you those epithets were flying over there, too. Oh, and I heard Tucker say when he heard her voice he 'instinctively crossed his legs'. These are not compliments

3) To the people that want to stay home... sure it's your choice to stay home... but it's not a choice to be proud of. If you are dissatisfied with the choices you have, try to fight and make them better next time. But inaction is worse than making the wrong action

I'll let everyone else deal with 1 and 2, but this point needs to be addressed:

It's more than a choice to stay home and not vote, it's a legitimate option. Abstaining from participating in an election can be as powerful a statement as actually voting. If you use abstaining as a public option you send a message, in this case to the Democrat party, that says "My needs have been ignored."

On the other hand the message you send if you vote for McCain is "It was never about being a Democrat" (especially since, as far as I'm aware, none of the PUMAs and 'harridans' were undecided because moderates aren't the sort of people who participate in primaries). Maybe it isn't about being a democrat, but if you switch aisles you're not going to find any friends waiting for you if you want to come back. If you abstain, you retain the power to negotiate.

Those who are so pro-Hillary that they would rather not vote should be using their voice to say just that: "Until the party I have supported and worked for is able to show my needs the same dedication I have shown it, I will not continue to help them."

Of course, I, personally, would prefer that to not be the case. Obama is able to rally enough new voters that there won't necessarily be votes lost but the pro-Hillary camp is more than a vote; their volunteers and fundraisers. One would imagine that a lot of the people rallying around Obama won't return when the next old white washington insider runs, but the Hillary supporters will (probably) still be around, and they'll still want their voices to be heard.

It's kind of hard to take your call for "respectful discourse" seriously when you call the supporters of the other candidate "Obamamaniacs."

That note of bitterness reveals more than you would like. Of course, the reasons you cannot endorse Obama have EVERYTHING to do with Hillary. You have made your decision about He-Who-Is-Not-Hillary, and your perception of everything about him follows from that.