results from a moral vacuum in israel. but probably not- thug societies generally don't run out of would-be head thugs. israel put itself in threat of extinction by the means of it's creation, and the resulting 'eternal war' with it's neighbors and the people of palestine whose land the zionists stole has no solution.

so israelis must go on fighting, apparently forever. some younger ones are beginning to question the morality of the creation of a jewish state in a land overwhelmingly moslem. others are sickened by the brutality constantly growing in the army, charged with carrying out oppressive surveillance of the dispossed. then there's the simple corruption ever more evident in the political class...

leadership is difficult in a nation where people have ample and diverse reasons to despise would-be leaders.

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam. Yet don’t make a mountain out of a molehill; it’s only a blessing in disguise.

Anyway, Israel’s behaviour depends on its neighbors’. It’s tit for tat.

' israel put itself in threat of extinction by the means of it's creation, and the resulting 'eternal war' with it's neighbors and the people of palestine whose land the zionists stole has no solution.'

the UN's first bastard child. prodded by that international busy body eleanor roosevelt. whacha gonna do?

Leadership is difficult in a nation where people have ample and diverse reasons to despise would-be leaders.

Not to the extent to think of evicting or driving out of power as what happened in Qatar and Bahrain, let alone killing others. In Israel, everybody respects the rules of the game; their leaders were always democratically elected and, thus, their fate will be decided at the ballot box, thing that their Arab neighbours would rather die than do it.

Except in those cases where Arabs do hold democratic elections, the results of which are ignored by Israel and its allies.

thewikked:

Except in those cases where Arabs do hold democratic elections, the results of which are ignored by Israel and its allies.

You're putting me on!

What you call democratic elections held/hold/are being held in Arab states is not Democracy. Democracy is a different kettle of fish entirely. Democracy there is airy-fairy for me! Name just a single Arab country where you honestly think a president or, say, a prime minister whose fate has been decided at the ballot box!

The Palestinians held democratic elections that brought Hamas to power. I never said anything about a state or country. Their fate was decided by the US and Israel though, and not the ballot box, so I guess you got me there.

A mere angry reaction meant to punish the PLO. I guess that even Fatah militants might have voted “Hamas”, I think. Besides, the presence of the international observers came at the right time for the Pals who decided to make the most of it and, hence, tried to talk them into having faith in their readiness to behave as a democratic State, but, alas, reality on the ground has made it otherwise. Talk is cheap! Fatah and Hamas are two hold-outs who are willing to negotiate but not ready to agree. Isn’t it a dilemma?

Stubborn as they are, they can never find some middle ground between them.

I am not sure what your point is. Why do you guess that even Fatah militants might have voted “Hamas”, you think? What is this ‘talk them into having faith in their readiness…’ gibberish?

Hamas did not run on a hostile kill Israel platform. It was not elected for its Islamic ideology. Having been elected democratically by the people, Hamas was not given the opportunity to perform its duties, but rather was faced with sanctions designed to punish the people for electing the wrong party.

Whatever story you want to tell about it, it contradicts your post above. If you want to modify your position now, then go ahead.

Considering Hamas's charter specifcaly calls for the destruction and elimination of the state of Israel I don't see how you can expect Israel to support its rise to power.

Only a suicidal fool would support an organizations attempt to take the reins of power when the aforementioned org. has repeatedly and unabashedly called for your eradication.

Has Hamas EVER agreed to the principle that Israel has the right to exist? I think not. So why would any sane Israeli support Hamas as a political entity?

Israel has never recognized the right of Palestine to exist. Israel’s occupation of Palestinian lands has been brutal and oppressive. Hamas has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to refrain from violence and a desire to negotiate with Israel, despite what is written in their charter. Only a naïve fool would believe that Hamas has consistently maintained a strict and unwavering adherence to its charter rather than adapting to a changing environment that eventually saw them actually participate in the political process.

I do not care what your take on it is. My post was in reply to a guy who believed falsely that Arabs would always choose death over participation in democratic elections. Whatever you think your point is it is irrelevant in this case.

Your castigation of Israel and its' supporters for not supporting a democratic election is relevant on any level you choose. Only a fool would think that Hamas has or ever will change its position concerning Israel. If they are so willing to negotiate then remove those passages from its charter. Simple? They have not and will not because it is their aim and their public rhetoric is just that. Rhetoric aimed at facilitating a long range desire for Israels' eventual demise.

I would agree that Israeli treament of Palastinians in the occupied territories has become brutal and oppresive.

And I would agree that Arabs as a whole would rather vote than strap a bomb to themselves.

But to try and slip that "never ran on a kill Israel" remark past was just to much. Again, if they don't seek to eradicate Israel then why not drop the language as a starting point?

The point is that we have a case of Arabs choosing to vote in real democratic elections. That Israel and her allies opposed the results of the vote, and not the idea of having the election is of course relevant, but not to determining whether or not Arabs would rather kill or vote. It says more about whether or not Israel will respect the democratic process in the areas it occupies.

How can you predict the future? Hamas will never change its position concerning Israel? How can you know this?

Your charter argument is weak. Why do you except that with the devastation of the ongoing occupation, the first priority for Hamas is going to be to amend their charter so as not to offend Israeli sensibilities? This idea of preconditions for negotiation is a non starter. Do you want to say that since the emergence of Hamas, they have at all times chosen violence over a different strategy? It is in fact the case that Hamas is an adapting movement in a chaotic environment. It was elected as a party that would best represent the interests of the people because of its insusceptibility to corruption, unlike Fatah. The platform was not ‘kill Israel’ as I said, or do you suppose that people on the whole voted Hamas because they want to eradicate Israel?

thewikked:

1) What is this ‘talk them into having faith in their readiness…’ gibberish?

2)Hamas did not run on a hostile kill Israel platform. It was not elected for its Islamic ideology.

3)Having been elected democratically by the people, Hamas was not given the opportunity to perform its duties, but rather was faced with sanctions designed to punish the people for electing the wrong party.

4)Whatever story you want to tell about it, it contradicts your post above. If you want to modify your position now, then go ahead.

Don't get so steamed up over the issue.

From your reply, I could guess (once more) that you are an Arab who is pro Hamas, if not a fervent militant. Btw, what does “HAMAS” stand for? Anyway, as for this expression: ‘talk them into having faith in their readiness…’ which you ticketed as “gibberish” it means that the Pals, by that show, tried to persuade the observers and, through them, the international community that they (the Pals) were ready for an independent State where they could behave as civilized peoples. I really thought you were smarter than that.

Notwithstanding, and to be perfectly honest, I personally, by hook or by crook, don’t believe in Democracy under occupation. As for your so-called democratic elections, it’s airy-fairy. Fatah and Hamas are two hold-outs who are always willing to negotiate, but not to agree. Both are well-armed militias, one is backed up mainly by the West, and the other finds its ideological support and equipment in Iran, Syria and from Hezbollah. All of which are seeking for something called “influences and interests” be it strategic and/or economic, that is why too many cooks spoil the broth.

N.B. All the underlined italics are "idioms"!

Like I said, the Palestinians elected Hamas in democratic elections. This contradicts your absurd assumption that Arabs would rather die than vote.

Another absurd assumption is that I am Arab and/or pro Hamas.

Hey, thanks for the idioms, but I don't buy into any of that fucked up bullshit. And you didn't have to go to the trouble of reprinting what I said because I am well aware of my argument. Next time dont waste your time trying to impress anyone; instead, start off with a correct and interesting claim and then support it with facts. By the way, your last underlined italic is not an idiom but a regular word that can be taken literally. Also it is incorrect to put quotes around the word "idioms" as you have done, wheras it is quite correct to do so as I have done.