Most men are good fathers. I would venture to say that there are probabky as many good fathers as good mothers.

But the presumption by feminists is clearly that fathers are abusers and perps until proven otherwise.

Listen to the nonsense put out in the previous post which used the phrase 'may not have enough evidence.... of abuse'

Do you know when there might not be 'enough evidence of abuse'. When there isn't any abuse.

But women, just like men, in divorce cases can be vindictive, can lie, and can use the institutionalized bias of the court to steal children from men who have always been good fathers and never been guilty of anything beside having a wife who was bored of their marriage.

There is no worse feeling of vulnerabilty than knowing that the child that you fathered and adore, that is the light of your world, that makes waking up a joy and living worthwhile, can be stolen from you and used against you and that you are powerless to protect and teach your own son all the lessons and skills, give all the advice that will make his life a celebration.

Do you have some evidence of this statement, "But the presumption by feminists is clearly that fathers are abusers and perps until proven otherwise."? Perhaps some quote from a book, essay, or speech that defines feminists in general in this way?

None of the "feminists" I know hold this presumption. So I'd be really interested to know how you came to that conclusion.

Or, perhaps, since there are so many branches, types, and subcultures within feminism, you might want to define to which one you are referring?

I was referring specifically, as I mentioned, to the previous post by Jomada entitled 'power to the perps.'

As to the claim that I should reference a book, essay or speech, I don't live in a world that consists entirely of books, essays or speeches. I live on earth.

And on earth, that is how many women who consider themselves feminists act. They believe in a 'sisterhood' in which women never do evil, never make mistakes, and never do wrong, a sisterhood consisting of women who apparently have risen above the human condition.

If a woman in one of these 'sisterhoods' makes a claim, then it is taken as Gospel and the onus is on the guy to disprove the unprovable.

That's reality.

parker:

Do you have some evidence of this statement, "But the presumption by feminists is clearly that fathers are abusers and perps until proven otherwise."? Perhaps some quote from a book, essay, or speech that defines feminists in general in this way?

I don't believe that all feminists believe that, but like any movement, there are extreme elements. Andrea Dworkin was one such nut in the feminist movement. On more than one occasion, she stated in her speeches that any form of heterosexual intercourse was rape.

She was probably atypical of feminists in general, but her statements did help fuel the belief that feminists in general hate men and assume that we're all potential rapists.

Good point.

Yes, father's rights groups blame "feminism," but the feminism that they blame is a straw man.

I am referring specifically to the Fathers Rights Movement, which is a backlash group (see michael flood, stop family violence, etc.)

I am NOT against fathers.

I bring up the FR movement b/c O'Rourk blames family court on feminism ---- this is from the FR agenda.

And -- Family Court is for the most part for couples WITH conflict. Most couples decide custody themselves. Thus, couples in family court have conflict. Many of the men have been abusive (one researcher told me 40%).

There are constructive parenthood groups (referred to as Positive Parenting or Responsible Parenthood groups). I fully support them...

Please do not label me a radical feminist -- I have researched these groups fairly extensively - with credible sources - I'm just listing the ones with good intros to the Fathers Rights Movement here. I strongly encourage people to learn about this movement b/c it does have negative consequences and they may set women's gains back....

How could you say the entire Father's Rights movement is negative and backlash? There are many good people involved in the movement. Apparently we can subdivide feminisim into different camps so as not to generalize everyone, but when the shoe is on the other foot it isn't so?

parker wrote the following post at 08/05/2008 1:48 PM:

Do you have some evidence of this statement, "But the presumption by feminists is clearly that fathers are abusers and perps until proven otherwise."? Perhaps some quote from a book, essay, or speech that defines feminists in general in this way?

Actually, the evidence is the anti-male positions taken by feminist groups like NOW, and the lobbyists they employ. They portray themselves as the face of feminism, so I take their positions to be those of feminists.

morganja:

They believe in a 'sisterhood' in which women never do evil, never make mistakes, and never do wrong, a sisterhood consisting of women who apparently have risen above the human condition.

Thanks for telling me what I believe. I thought I was part of a movement that strives for valuing women and men (and their work, brains, bodies, emotions, etc) equally.

Really, dude, I've never met one of "your" feminists (and I know a lot of feminists). The "sisterhood" is crap - there are plenty of women I don't particularly care for. Then again, my disdain is not due to their gender - does that make me part of the "sisterhood"? Because I don't hate women for being women?

"How could you say the entire Father's Rights movement is negative and backlash? "

They are known as "backlash" groups to feminism. They blame women and feminists for their problems.

This from Dr. Michael Flood:

"Fathers’ rights groups overlap with men’s rights groups and both represent an organised backlash to feminism. Fathers’ rights and men’s rights groups can be seen as the anti-feminist wing of the men’s movement, the network of men’s groups and organisations mobilised on gender issues."

"Some fathers' rights groups send misogynist messages, use strategies such as harassment, stalking and intimidation, and strive to chip away at programs and services for women and children. They deny the extent of domestic violence and offer sympathy to the perpetrators."

Personally, I have been to their web sites and forums and I have read their hateful messages (women are vindictive liars, women are malicious, we should repeal their vote, men put more into marriage than women, "rape baloney", etc. etc.)

As well, I have been personally attacked by these guys for writing about them. They have sent me nasty profanity-ridden emails, some threatening. Ask anyone who has every written about them....they are well-known for their nastiness.

yes, the social pendulum has swung as far left to the female as its going to and now you will see a return to more middle ground..and the feminists are scared to death....too bad,, equality requires equal responsibility...