Let's face it. The use of torture, like the use of, say, capital punishment, is ultimately a political question.

Bush has judged, correctly I think, that the American people will not care much one way or the other about the treatment--under torture or otherwise--of obscure foreigners with heavy accents, a strange religion, and dark skin.

And, he has further political cover from the "war on terror" which, however preposterous in substance, has certainly taken hold in the public mind and, especially the media (even NPR reporters say "war on terror" without irony or embarassment).

This finds its highest (or perhaps lowest) expression in the hypothetical of a prisoner known (how? it is never said) to have key information on an upcoming bombing known (how? well, no need to delve into that) to be about to occur. So, on the so-called liberal side, we have Alan Dershowitz, who has no problem with torture, in principle, because in his view such an eventuality might, after all arise. And, on the so-called right, we have Brit Hume actually asking such a question--as if it were a serious policy issue--of Republican presidential candidates (the Democrats did well to turn down Fox's offer of a debate).

So, although some of the chattering classes have been wringing their hands about torture and the like, the simple fact is that Bush has nothing to worry about on this front, at least not until a few middle-class white guys from the midwest are swept up and appear later with electricity burns on their genitals.

Remember -- it is not about what kind of people THEY are, it is about what kind of people WE are. The American people have become the kind of people who torture our enemies. For 225 years we concemned that kind of activity. I find this development to be sad, in addition to being short-sighted.

You should be happy. We are no longer think we are special. Isn't this what you guys wanted all along?

I agree, it is sad.

But, Bush was elected twice (albeit, the first time by the SCOTUS) and we get the politicians we deserve.

I don't know who you think "we guys" are, but it would have been better if we had joined the world, as you put it, by taking the best, not the worst aspects of it. What's next on the path to the Bush administration's push to join the worst of the world world, a military coup?

I get the impression that it would be okay with Gringo -- so long as it is a good Republican who does it.