I wanna see someoby actually say they agree with Grandpa when he says we "have succeeded" in Iraq due to the surge, and that we have achieved (or will achieve) "victory in Iraq," whatever that is.

Anybody?

Bonus points if you can specifically define what "victory" is.

if they can also tell us since we've, uhmmm succeeded.. when we can leave!

It doesn't matter. As long as we can leave without the mullah's being able to say they drove us out...

"We've succeeded...but we can't leave until we succeed!!!"

Well, it seems to me that we couldn't leave before because we had not succeeded, and we can't leave now because we have succeeded.

stinker12:

if they can also tell us since we've, uhmmm succeeded.. when we can leave!

...the surege is giving them an opportunity to succeed.

Here's hoping they take advantage of it.

Victory in iraq is a self-sustaining government and a nation capable of holding it's own on the world stage with security and prosperity for it's people.

None of which happen overnight.

amerikkka is exactly what they wanted all along. a continuing presence of america forces based in iraq to project american power in the oil rich regions and frustrate china.

the fact that thousands of poorly educated blacks and white trash have to die is hardly important

The longer we stay there the more likely that is to happen.

One "fatwa against the infidels" from Ayatollah Sistani and we're talking mayhem.

Bush has ben VERY lucky that Sistani has laid low.

HST-libertarian:

It doesn't matter. As long as we can leave without the mullah's being able to say they drove us out...

things are starting to fall apart in Fallujah as we speak.

That will make for some excellent fodder on DNC and 527 ads real soon!

...just so we get out. Let the Iraqis do the heavy carrying from now on, it's their country. We did help get rid of Saddam, FWIW, so at least they don't have to worry about him.

"Defining what victory is" is the problem, isn't it? Especially when you're talking about the illegal occupation of another country...

I always wonder if Pugs like you actually think that vague hooey like this even approaches an actual definition of victory...

Victory in iraq is a self-sustaining government and a nation capable of holding it's own on the world stage with security and prosperity for it's people.

checkm8r:

...the surege is giving them an opportunity to succeed.

Here's hoping they take advantage of it.

Victory in iraq is a self-sustaining government and a nation capable of holding it's own on the world stage with security and prosperity for it's people.

None of which happen overnight.

Cause after all, it's the "Mullahs' " opinions that really MATTER in the world...

/sarcasm off

The cons don't care about the Iraqis, this is just a face-saving exercise at this point.

And victory means keeping the war going until Obama is in office, and that's already been assured.

...if we never leave.