Partly inspired by a recent thread of JV-12's, but also something that has frequently occurred to me while watching the rather heavy-handed attempts of some Christians on this board to bring others "to the light" etc:

JV-12 wrote:

"I do not believe the Christian faith is the true faith because of the miracles I have put forth. I believe that is but one important ingredient.... Beyond miracles, is what else does the faith claim and have to offer? The historical record. The charity of the faith. The incomparable saints. So and so on. Far more is required, agreed. I just cannot go into all that right now, but that is actually the greater reason why I accept Christianity as the fullest and most truthful of God’s message."

I'm sure you've done some research into Christianity, and that is the basis for your above statement. But I've never seen any evidence either in your posts or in the posts of any of the other self-proclaimed Christians on this board suggesting that they have ANY credible knowledge about other faiths, the historical records, the list of miracles, the wondrous saints, the apparently witnessed evidence of 'faith-healing' etc etc etc. Can you give me a list of miracles in Islam? Can you tell me anything about the saint-equivalents in Hinduism, or Buddhism ? Can you provide me with a comparison of what the Koran says about God's love versus what the Bible says?Have you ever read the scriptures of any other major faith thatn your own ?

After all, if one wants to be a credible salesperson for one's own product, one has to have at least a half-decent knowledge of one's rivals' products, and not fall into the stereotype of "Christian who learns about other faiths from Hollywood action movies or from Christian sites created to diss other religions."

Good point, konark. This is why I try not to pass judgment on religions other than the one I'm familiar with.

The mention of miracles makes me want to ask, though...would you say Hinduism has a propensity for miracles to rival that of xianity in general, or JV-12's Marianist variant in particular? I feel that it's possible he is judging other religions according to a biased standard; his faith of choice seems big on miracles and producing lots of them, whereas other faiths may de-emphasize this to some degree or even disparage the notion of miracles as proof.

Hindus in general are rather fond of miracles, the scriptures have plenty of them, and the 'devout' Hindus will always tell you about the miracles that his father's second cousin absolutely definitely witnessed. And there are books and websites devoted to miracles by the various currently living favorite Gurus, such as Santh Sai Baba.

And admitedly, us Upanishadic/Brahmoistic Hindu types who tend to dismiss miracles as products of over-heated imaginations (or downright shams) and believe that Brahmo does not play dice with the universe aren't too popular with your more 'typical' Hindu :)

I've been thinking a lot lately about the subject raised in this post, and our tendency to assume the truth of our own faith tradition without any significant knowledge of the traditions of others. Growing up Baptist in southwest Missouri, I knew that the Bible (especially the King James version) was God's inspired word, the Book of Mormon was an obvious rip-off by a failed con man, the Koran was an Arab's attempt to attempt to counterfeit the true Word, and that the Bhagavad Gita was pagan nonsense. I suspect that if I had grown up in Salt Lake City, Riyadh, or Delhi my views on which text was inspired may have been different.

For those who still hold that the Christian Bible, and only the Christian Bible, is inspired, I have a question. What makes you think so? Why should someone not raised in that tradition conclude that only it contains the Truth?

Partly inspired by a recent thread of JV-12's, but also something that has frequently occurred to me while watching the rather heavy-handed attempts of some Christians on this board to bring others "to the light" etc:

=== One does what one can. It's the thought that counts. ===

JV-12 wrote:

"I do not believe the Christian faith is the true faith because of the miracles I have put forth. I believe that is but one important ingredient.... Beyond miracles, is what else does the faith claim and have to offer? The historical record.

=== Yes, which verifies Biblical Prophecy. ===

The charity of the faith. The incomparable saints. So and so on. Far more is required, agreed.

=== Like The Gracious Gift of Faith in Christ Jesus from God along with the impetus to profess His Name and die for it if necessary. ===

I just cannot go into all that right now,

=== The Conviction of the Holy Spirit of Sin and Righteousness is the primary ingredient in hearing, seeing and believing the message. ===

but that is actually the greater reason why I accept Christianity as the fullest and most truthful of God’s message."

=== Well The Gospel, anyway, that's for sure. ===

I'm sure you've done some research into Christianity, and that is the basis for your above statement.

=== I used to eat Buhda-Bread in a commune. Never defecated so effortlessly and completely in my life. ===

But I've never seen any evidence either in your posts or in the posts of any of the other self-proclaimed Christians on this board suggesting that they have ANY credible knowledge about other faiths,

=== Ahem. I have spent some time with many of various persuasions as a hippy, including witches, warlocks, monks and devotees. The witches were over sexed. They were the only ones I could have any complaint about. ===

the historical records, the list of miracles, the wondrous saints, the apparently witnessed evidence of 'faith-healing' etc etc etc.

=== That's all well and good. The primary medium by which Christians are saved, actually is Preching the Gospel. Witnessing is usually a good tool for edification of the believer, though. I fall into the trap of witnessing to unbelievers, myself, but this is what I have discovered. Save your breath. Preaching, just stick to preaching the Word and according to the Word. Just about every damned soul out there in America knows what a Christian is supposed to believe, think and do, so just keep repeating the preaching of the word in season and out of season. ===

Can you give me a list of miracles in Islam?

=== Yep. One day Saladin told Richard that he wouldn't kill all the Christians and Jews in Acre if he went home, so the next day Richard and his men were outta there as they had found the place a ruddy hell hole, terribly unlike the green dales of merry olde England and they really badly wanted to go home and have a tankard of cool ale. So, about the time the shoved off, Saladin's Amry started looting and slaughtering Christians and Jews. Richard, being a man of impecable integrity and loyalty to God decided to turn around and attack the Moslem Army at Acre. He hoisted such signal up the flag pole but the fleet acted like they hadn't seen it. So Richard turned around his single ship and had it beach itself and he mounted his charger. He singlehandedly charged the Moslem Army of 5,000 men drawn up on the beach to oppose him. Rrichard cut through the line in a Holy Zeal of hacking down Mohammedans for The Lord. Trotting forward from Sladin's camp where the old cripple lay on his cots and pillows shaded by his pavillion from the setting sun, was the Moslem's Champion and they charged each other. Ricahrd sliced him in half just below the armpits with a mighty hack with his God Provided and Blessed Broadsword. The whole Moslem army ran away. The Christian Army finally was shamed into landing and slaghtered a few thousand Moslem stragglers and looting civilians to the Glory of The Most High. Richard negotiated another treaty and this time Saladin did not betray his word. ====

Can you tell me anything about the saint-equivalents in Hinduism, or Buddhism ?

=== One day Buddha turned a stone into a little bird. ===

Can you provide me with a comparison of what the Koran says about God's love versus what the Bible says?

=== Uh-huh. Basically, the difference between God's message in the Koran and that in The Holy Bible is that the Koran, like ALL other Holy Writings of the World tells a man how he might appease God through behavior (often involving sacrifice) and thereby earn the right to go to heaven (or make the rain fall in season).

The Bible, peculiar to all other Religious Writing teaches that mankind is hopelessly estranged from God who is Life and is destined to forever perish, except that God has chosen out a remnant to be kept with Him called the elect, and this elect consists of whosoever will believe in His Son Jesus Christ and confess such belief before men and thereby be restored by that Son to Abundant and Joyous Life Everlasting. ====

Have you ever read the scriptures of any other major faith thatn your own ?

=== A bit here and there. Book of Mormon left me stone cold, though, after the first paragraph. The poems of Kahlil Gibran got me laid once. ===

After all, if one wants to be a credible salesperson for one's own product, one has to have at least a half-decent knowledge of one's rivals' products,

=== Not really, because to beat a man at his own game is only going to alienate him.

Bank tellers are taught to find counterfeits by handling the real money so much that when something doesn't feel or seem right it gets more careful examination.

You see, the Bible is right or it isn't. If it is the sole faith and practice for a Child of God, the consequences of disbelief are as dire as the Bible says. The Bible claims the exclusivity of Christ as a means of salvation.

Every departure from the pure truth, every heresy will attack that exclusivity, that supremacy, that adequacy. ====

and not fall into the stereotype of "Christian who learns about other faiths from Hollywood action movies or from Christian sites created to diss other religions."

=== As long as I do fall into the actual Stereotype of forgiven and taken into the bosom of God, plug me in any old cubby-hole you have in mind. And I do. I have His blessed Assurance that I do.

Dd

Funny, my Kempo teacher was a Vedanta Hindu. We had interesting conversations about a lot of these things. Interestingly I wonder if we will find that as telecommunications move us further into a secondary orality framework, that we will find ideas of religion to be some of the first affected. I suspect that some of the "Christianity as the LITERAL truth" is a struggle against time and that we will eventually acknowledge that the letter does, in fact, kill the Truth and is distinct from the Word-as-event which is present in the minds of oral cultures.

Sure, doggie, whatever u say :) :)

My post was actually aimed at Christians who take themselves a little more seriously.....

predicto:

=== A bit here and there. Book of Mormon left me stone cold, though, after the first paragraph. The poems of Kahlil Gibran got me laid once. ===

You got me curious and I had to go and look. What was it specifically about the following paragraph that so turned you off?

" I, Nephi, having been aborn of bgoodly cparents, therefore I was dtaught somewhat in all the learning of my father; and having seen many eafflictions in the course of my days, nevertheless, having been highly favored of the Lord in all my days; yea, having had a great knowledge of the goodness and the mysteries of God, therefore I make a frecord of my proceedings in my days. "

Surely there were more dramatic and shocking entries you could have selected (had you actually read it...)?

I try not to get into discussions of other religions. I would love to learn about them, but have not yet found the time.

Now, I do not know concerning other religions, but I believe JV-12 has expressed the problem that most Christians have, even though they will deny it. The problem is that they rely on Earthly knowledge, and the teachings of men to know what is true. As you say, most have never been objectively instructed in the history and workings of other religions, but except what their preachers say.

I am a Christian, but not beause of anything that can be proven, or even supported by Earthly knowledge or human understanding. I know (I do not believe), that Jesus is the Savior, and that True Christianity is God's one and only church, because he has told me. I do not need men to tell me. I do not need a book to tell me. I have the truth directly from the mouth of God.

This is the only way to truly know anything. However, most people only want to know something if it doesn't interupt their lives. For this reason they do not know about other religions, or even the fulness of their own in many cases.

shema

you're not making sense.

1) define the word 'know'

2) define the word 'believe'

The dictionary states that they are, in most cases, the same thing.

I am a Christian, but not beause of anything that can be proven, or even supported by Earthly knowledge or human understanding. I know (I do not believe), that Jesus is the Savior, and that True Christianity is God's one and only church, because he has told me. I do not need men to tell me. I do not need a book to tell me. I have the truth directly from the mouth of God.

You heard god's voice? Did he have an accent? Was his diction clear? How did you know it was his voice and not the voice (for instance) of a personal psychosis or of the devil or of some trickster such as Loki? And why didn't I hear "the truth directly from the mouth of god"? Why didn't everyone in the world hear this "truth"?

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. You aren't anything special that god would communicate with you directly and let the vast majority of humanity go to hell for the lack of a simple "Hey! Hello there! This is GOD speaking so listen up!!" (Only much louder.)

Wrenn:

shema

you're not making sense.

1) define the word 'know'

2) define the word 'believe'

The dictionary states that they are, in most cases, the same thing.

The dictionary is right...in most cases.

But not in all.

My wife KNOWS our son is hers. I believe he is mine. Granted that I could KNOW if I wanted to, but I have enough faith in my wife that belief is sufficient.

See the difference?

"And why didn't I hear "the truth directly from the mouth of god"? "

Maybe you weren't listening? Or maybe G_D thinks you're an asshole? Who's to know?

(Of course there are dozens of other explanations, but if you ask a silly question...)

Really? I would think that there are no shortage of assholes that are also Christians so that is unlikely to be a factor. For that matter, have YOU heard the voice of god?

It isn't a silly question but actually one of the most profound. If it is in god's power to inform people of his existance and he fails to do so and he thereby condems billions of humans to everlasting torment, what can we assume about god? It would seem that the most flattering conclusion we could draw is that he is just imaginary.

I got serious where serious is due. Those who have eyes to see the Word of God or Ears to hear the Word of God will understand what I have written, where it is deadly serious and where it is having fun. Those that don't won't.

Dd