This childish retort is pretty much the way I feel about sexy underpants. Sure, I enjoy looking cute as I disrobe with someone special, and everything that goes along with that. The problem, with underwear and sex in general, comes when a source of fun becomes a tedious obligation. You might want to wear (cute undies of choice) once in a while, but not every night. Looking good and having certain bedroom skills is getting to be just another tedious obligation of womanhood, along with cooking, cleaning, dumbing down in conversation, and bringing your man another beer without being asked. Where's the fun in that?

then you need to stay single, i dont know any men like you mentioned, but i do know plenty of needy females....they are no fun....

yeah i agree. The guy i am with cooks, and can't stand dumb female conversation. As to underwear..most guys I know think its silly when girls wear fancy lingerie..as they are much more interested in what lies beneath it.

sugar_k wrote: "Looking good and having certain bedroom skills is getting to be just another tedious obligation of womanhood, along with cooking, cleaning, dumbing down in conversation, and bringing your man another beer without being asked."

I don't know why I'm still single, because I've never expeced any of that. Of course, not being among the really desirable
guys - the ones who make your girlfriends envious - means that I never had to opportunity to develop such traits.

Well, to which females are you not desirable, the ones who wear VS every day? I'm not just being snarky here. Stupid made-up standards cut both ways.

This feels to me like an objection that's about 40 years out of date. Maybe I'm out of touch with my fellow contemporary males but I don't think so. Not one of us in my social circle wants our girlfriends to dumb it down. I think even a few of us would like it if they smarted it up a little more now and then (the ones of us who aren't lucky enough to have girlfriends that are smarter than us). And I live in southwest Missouri, home of John Ashcroft.

And my girlfriend and I get each other beers, whoever happens to be nearest the fridge.

There are plenty of comtemporary feminist objections to talk about (the commodification of sex being one, sure) but being a cooking, cleaning Stepford Wife just doesn't seem like an across-the-board expectation in 2008. That sounds like an expectation that would exist within twisted, individual relationships, in which the man is a lout and the woman is a sap. In which case, get a new man and a new relationship. Or, hell, stay single. Fish don't need no bicycle, right?

I Second what the guy above said. I'm in a relationship that has been going on for 2 years now. I don't cook, he does. I can outsmart him (and he enjoys it sometimes), he does his the wash/cleans when I can't, and we don't drink beer (but we both will get tea or soda out of the fridge for each other). When did you think of that comment (the first one)? Like 35 years ago? Seriously, relationships have been like that in years. And sometimes, people actually wear thing (like sexy panties) for their own self-confident boosts, not for other people.

Definitely, there are egalitarian relationships out there. I have been in them and I have seen other people have them (my current relationship status is a long story that we won't go into here, and the problems I'm talking about have little or nothing to do with my personal life). I'm also amazed at how the old Stepford standards still hold in places and social circles where I'd expect them to be considered hilariously out of date. Most of the people I know, male and female, have advanced degrees and the glam jobs that go along with them (maybe men in these circles are more threatened by women, not less). I see men expecting women to do more housework, dumb down in conversation, and (the most striking one) meet ever-increasing standards of sexual object-ness. Maybe it's more accurate to say that as the old "perfect housekeeper" standard fades, a new "international financier by day, perfect hostess by evening, porn star by night" standard is taking its place.

As far as the sexy panties go, if you read my post you saw that I enjoy wearing them, often. I just don't want to feel that it's some kind of baseline obligation.

Agreed with the majority of posters in this thread. The old screeds about men expecting to be waited on and being "threatened" by smart women are so outdated. Yet I hear women wrap themselves in these stereotypes like they're a security blanket.

I can't count the number of times I've heard a woman explan her failure to attract a certain guy as because the guy couldn't handle an intelligent/sucessful woman. Uh, no. More likely it was because you were annoying, or physically unattractive to him, or it just wasn't going to happen. It's like hearing a guy claim he couldn't land a girl because she was a "bitch." Again no, more likely the problem was you, not her.

On getting a beer. Again, I don't know any guy under the age of 65 who expects his wife to be his waitress. Or who won't get his wife things when she asks. Please, give us some credit.

Now do most men like sexy, vampy, hot action from their wife/girlfriend? Absolutely. And do most women like to be wined, dined, and courted by their husband even if they've been married for 20 years? Of course. Neither expectation is realistic, but nor are they illegitimate. That's just life.

Most men I know have no problem with an intelligent/successful woman, provided she looks like Scarlett Johansson and defers to him in every decision that matters: what car to drive (or whether to own a car), where to live (moves for jobs always go one way in the relationships I see), where to eat. The ideal woman is not the old Donna-Reed-esque doormat. She might even have an adorable Lara Croft-ian martial arts habit. But that doesn't mean she's not still oppressed by stupid standards.

"Looking good and having certain bedroom skills is getting to be just another tedious obligation of womanhood, along with cooking, cleaning, dumbing down in conversation, and bringing your man another beer without being asked. Where's the fun in that?"

Wow, that is depressing. While I have never dumbed down for any man, I don't have any problem with the other "tedious obligations of womanhood".

I stay fit because I like to be healthy and feel good about my appearance, yes, but I also consider keeping myself attractive part of the deal of being life-mated to someone! My husband feels the same way. We both exercise and groom to please one another's sense of aesthetics, because we love each other and put great stock in one another's opinions. He loves the look of garters under a dress, and I love the look he gives me when he notices I am wearing them.

We put forth real effort to learn what gives the other pleasure, and to get good at it. This could be anything from foot-rubs to blow-jobs to veal marsala with baby artichokes and wild rice.

Bringing him another beer without being asked? Well, yeah! I also TIVO Mythbusters for him without being asked, and buy him new comic books if I happen to be in the store (buying them for myself, of course). Why would I slave away in this horrible fashion?

Why, because it takes SO little effort, and makes him feel adored and pampered. Because he dotes on me in the same way. Because I take pride in looking good in a teddy and being a mink in the sack. Because doing nice things for someone I love makes me feel good.

Seriously, if looking sexy and being good in bed are "tedious obligations" how could you possibly expect a healthy relationship from anyone?

Would you be interested in a long-term relationship with a two-pump chump who you found aesthetically unappealing?

I sure wouldn't.

Freki

It sounds like you're doing it because you want to, too. I'm happy for you.

My point is that doing nice things for your partner without being asked and keeping yourself (as much as possible) attractive and alluring to him/her ARE obligations, or should be. They certainly shouldn't be boring or demeaning!

I think that when being good in bed becomes a chore, and looking sexy leads to sex which is a chore, and cooking is a chore, cleaning up is a chore, and doing favours is a chore, that is simply a sign of an unhappy relationship. Nothing to do with feminism.

Freki

PS while I do most of the cleaning, he picks up the foeces-related jobs (catbox, snake tank, doggie duty, scrub toilet) so I feel it is fair.

"Most men I know have no problem with an intelligent/successful woman, provided she looks like Scarlett Johansson and defers to him in every decision that matters: what car to drive (or whether to own a car), where to live (moves for jobs always go one way in the relationships I see), where to eat."

Man, I gotta tell ya, this still sounds to me like an issue within your own social circle. This is not the world that I live in.

Again: Springfield, Missouri. 95% white, median income below the national average, college education below the national average, and home of Bass Pro. And I still don't see myself or my contemporaries in your description. And, believe me, I know a large swath of my contemporaries.

But fine, maybe we are an oasis of gender neutrality out here. Weird. Who knew? Definitely not how the flyover states are portrayed in Hollywood, but that's nothing new. So good for us!

*shrugs*