A few points-

1. Those who claim God "has a plan", would surely have to include World War-II in that. One of THE monumental events in human history...dozens of nations involved, a BILLION people involved, millions of deaths (both combat and atrocities), etc., etc.

2. The prime human motivator for atleast the European part (possibly even the Japanese inclusion) of World War-II was Adolf Hitler. Without him, there would have been no Anti-Comintern Pact with Italy and Japan, no invasion of Poland (precipitating French and British involvement) and no invasion of Russia in 1941.

Without him, Germany either would have collapsed...possibly gone Communist. Or some other more "Mussulini"-like fascist would have emerged and likely, like Mussolini, not pushed for an expansionist Germany in Europe, but perhaps concentrated on Africa or even Yugoslavia.

Or, say Hitler did rise to power....without pushing that expansionist policy and invading Poland...the war would have never happened or might have been isolated to Europe and resulted in "merely" a Germano-Russian war with Germany (with no Western front) easily defeating Stalin, but not causing a global conflict that involved the UK, France, or the United States. And certainly (even with a Holocaust) never leading to something like the creation of Israel.

Therefore, if World War-II was part of "God's plan"...and Hitler necessary to that plan, then Hitler could NOT act with free will. He HAD to act the way he did, to "fulfill the plan".

Now, if somebody has no free will...then they are merely a "robot", acting without thinking, and therefore not responsible for their acts.

So...either there was no "plan" from God on the war....or Hitler was blameless for his acts during it.

IF we're all just part of "God's plan," how are ANY of us guilty of doing wrong, or liable for punishment for "sin?" We're just puppets acting in a show.

But if we're NOT puppets, if we have "free will," then we're NOT part of a plan, since even God couldn't know how our individual, freely-willed actions would form and combine into a complex skein of behaviors. In that case, how could you say God was omniscient or had a "plan" at all?

You could accept the fine distinction of God being omniscient, but not having a plan. IOW, he KNOWS everything that's going to happen (massive predictive ability due to total knowledge of present conditions and trends), BUT he just doesn't effect it to any means or ends.

Reptilicus:

You could accept the fine distinction of God being omniscient, but not having a plan. IOW, he KNOWS everything that's going to happen (massive predictive ability due to total knowledge of present conditions and trends), BUT he just doesn't effect it to any means or ends.

But why did He stop? According to the Bible, he use to intervene. I suspect he washed his hands of us & moved on to another project.

dumb_blonde:

Reptilicus:

You could accept the fine distinction of God being omniscient, but not having a plan. IOW, he KNOWS everything that's going to happen (massive predictive ability due to total knowledge of present conditions and trends), BUT he just doesn't effect it to any means or ends.

But why did He stop? According to the Bible, he use to intervene. I suspect he washed his hands of us & moved on to another project.

As good a theory as any. God "cut us loose" and said "Work it out for yourselves....I'm going on vacation to the Lesser Magellanic Cloud for a few millenia, check back with you in the 5000s"

As good a theory as any. God "cut us loose" and said "Work it out for yourselves....I'm going on vacation to the Lesser Magellanic Cloud for a few millenia, check back with you in the 5000s"

Isn't that straight out of 'Angels in America' :) ?? (Heaven may, indeed, look rather like San Francisco.....)

konark_girl:

As good a theory as any. God "cut us loose" and said "Work it out for yourselves....I'm going on vacation to the Lesser Magellanic Cloud for a few millenia, check back with you in the 5000s"

Isn't that straight out of 'Angels in America' :) ?? (Heaven may, indeed, look rather like San Francisco.....)

Sorry. Never saw it.

Once the ball is snapped, everything changes. God needs to be able to roll the pocket to the left or right depending on where the pressure's coming from. Not only that, he's counting on his receivers to keep their heads in the game and come back to the quarterback when the DBs are all over the pattern. And Jesus, we could sure use a running back who can block the free safety when he's on a blitz.

Yeah! Football season's coming, sinners!

Even though we use our volition to make decisions we never do what we do not want to do given our choices. Therefore, since we never do what we don't want to do, our Sinful nature being in full accord with our flesh in everything we do, therefore we are righteously held accountable as a soul (Seat of the will). God does not force us to act against our will (note I did not say "free will". No one has a free will, anymore. Adam and Eve had one, and so did Jesus Christ, but everyone else since the Adamic Curse is born spiritually dead and a will enslaved by sin and death.

However, all this is foreordained because God brought reality into being as an entire unit, time running and having run its course, knowing the beginning AND the end and all instants of time in between. He looked at what He'd made and declared it good. So what God calls good cannot be anything else. All the natural laws unfolded with the Big Bang as spoken into existence by God and according to his perfect Plan. Sin is an element in Reality that must be there or the Plan would not be Perfect. Everything that exists is an element of a perfect Reality brought into existence by God to glorify Himself. That is the purpose of the Universe and that is the purpose of the Universe's crowning glory of all Creation: Man. Valued above the angels. Valued so highly that God became a Man and suffered a horrible death in order to save/purify a remnant to be saved out of the Great Destruction that will come upon all mankind in the Judgement.

Repent. Jesus is coming!

Dd

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DD- " Sin is an element in Reality that must be there or the Plan would not be Perfect."

If God created Reality...and the Plan...and Sin is an element of both that MUST be there for it to be Perfect...

then God created Sin.

Don't use to much logic on predick his head will explode,and i for one do not want to clean up that mess from my keyboard.