On XX and elsewhere, writers twist and turn to try to explain why their choices and actions are "feminist"--whether on big issues like working v. staying at home, the age of consent, and sexual freedom or small ones such as underwear marketing.

I don't mean to suggest that there are clear answers as to which of these choices is the "real feminist" one. But in any case, I can't recall the last time I heard anyone say "Yeah, maybe it's not feminist. But it's what I want to do."

What do I mean? By way of contrast, I am an environmentalist. Use mass transit. Have a small(ish) house that contributes back to the grid 6 months a year. But guess what. Sometimes I use paper plates at kids' parties because it is a hassle to run a dishwasher 5 times. Sometimes I take long showers. Sometimes I drive around just for fun or because I want to let the song on the radio finish. I don't try to rationalize any of this as good for the environment. It's not. It's not a perfect analogy, of course, but sometimes I just make other tradeoffs, including, I guess, "sacrificing values for fun." I don't think that means I'm not an environmentalist--it just means I'm an imperfect one.

So, question to anyone on XX Fray who considers herself/himself a feminist. Is there anything you do/like/choose that you think isn't consistent with feminism but that you do/like/choose anyway?

And no "feminism is all about choice. Anything I choose is consistent with feminism." That's a Mad Hatter-style cop out. Surely someone out there doing something that's not consistent with feminism without being cast out of the feminist fold, no?

Wise man once said:

"Everything in moderation, including moderation."

who cares, its so boring...

Lux,

This is a very intersting topic! Thanks for posting it! :)

First, I have to say that I am not sure I consider myself a feminist. I believe in many, even most of the things that 'feminists' hold as faith, but some of it i find either not-quite-true or too extreme. I guess if I had internalized the 'party line' (altho I think there are several rather than one!), I would feel guilty about that, and actually I do somewhat.

I am between the bulk of the second and third waves, so maybe that explains a lot. I definitely see sexism as alive and well, but like you and your environmentalism, I don't define everything I do thru a 'feminist' lens.

Some things that I do that sometimes I feel guilty about, but usually don't, and definitely do them:

-let men open doors for me (I even shame them into it if I see they aren't going to do it)

-get men to lift stuff for me (and brag on how strong they are) or work on stuff for me (and brag on the great job they did)

-will take a seat if a guy offers (will aslo take it if a young girl offers, this may be more about stamina than sexism)

-flirt with men to break the ice and put them in a little better mood (this is esp bad b/c I am betraying two -isms at once!), tho I do this with women too

-I wear a LOT of pink, giggle a lot, twirl my hair (maybe this is kinda trivial, but doesnt seem to be to the XX bloggers!)

-expand many things that feminist friends see as women's issues into a context that doesnt differentiate among men and women (for example, dangers of women working late in liquor stores, convenience stores and such into a workplace issue)

-happy to let men pay if they like, esp older male relatives!

I am sure there are many, many more, as I definitely have many flaws! However, these are some I could think of off the top of my head. I hope this is kinda what you are looking for.

Carolle :)

PS: Oh, and I use a lot of emoticons! ;)

I agree completely, and not in a "tee-hee! I'm a bad feminist!" way. There is no single Church of Feminism with a Pope telling us what to do. Sometimes, feminisms are going to clash. And sometimes, your feminist ideals are going to clash with what you want/need to do.

I can't stand the "anything I choose is consistent with feminism" excuse. If I choose to kick puppies or choose to burn down my grandparents' house, is that being feminist or is that just being a psycho asshole?

Real Feminism:

Having the ability to make good choices and not be dependant on men in an abusive relationship, was the initial thrust but the ultimate goal was to be able to compete on an equal basis with men in society and the work place. Much of this was achieved in the decade after 1966 but has stalled in recent years. Support for quality child care is not there and women still have the major burden for child rearing - but there have been major improvements. Abortion rights are also still in jeopardy.

Neo-Feminism:

This movement thinks that society should support women's desire to attract and keep the desirable men. Most of their complaints center around the fact that such men are nearly always thoughtless, sexist, cads and users but "if only they could be re-educated". No consideration is given to the fact that the actions of women in recent decades has reinforced this behaviour in any men who can get away with it.

Where women do not find immediate success in the workplace, this is considered a sign of sexism, rather than a lack of education, skills and time to climb the ladder. The prescription for this is to disadvantage younger men - especially those who got the required education for desireable jobs - so there will be little competition to women for promotions. This is eagerly embraced by men in senior management who know "their ox won't be gored" and will even give them bonuses for creating an "equal opportunity place of employment".

Slawrence5:

Real Feminism:

Having the ability to make good choices and not be dependant on men in an abusive relationship, was the initial thrust but the ultimate goal was to be able to compete on an equal basis with men in society and the work place. Much of this was achieved in the decade after 1966 but has stalled in recent years. Support for quality child care is not there and women still have the major burden for child rearing - but there have been major improvements. Abortion rights are also still in jeopardy.

So my question (after reading lots of post on VS) is what the heck does feminism have to do with shopping for cute underwear (or lingiere)?

or perhaps like someone else said, no one is interested in the question?

Caerolle:

or perhaps like someone else said, no one is interested in the question?

Well, if you don't have any interest in the question, then why are you even reading the post over it?

what????

I *am* interested! I wrote a long post confessing my feminist sins! Maybe you should read some of the other posts?

I was referring to some other post in teh thread that said this is too boring and tedious to pursue...

this has been the weirdest day for me on the XX Fray!

Carolle

Oh. >.< Sawwy. It just makes me really mad when people get on and start being mean and sarcastic and say this is stupid or that is stupid (not accusing you of doing it). It ruins the post for the rest of us.