Understanding that Christianity revolves around the "Truth" of gods words, and the understanding that the followers of the "Truth" are obligated to apply good faith, not just believe, but act upon the words of god. The consequence of freedom, and the very fiber of humanity comes directly under the gun of religion.

The religions that are scattered across the globe, from the pure Catholic, to the jungles of South America's witch doctors all have a common thread in the substance of the influencing of the mind. To set a table of what is allowed, gives you a fork, and a tooth pick. What religion dictates is allowed as a human, out weighs the natural human actions of every day life. This simplistic rendering of do's and don'ts are forever injected into every culture, and mind set of humanity. The very shame full out come of not abiding to these rules are mountainous and incredible.

Believe or suffer in the after life. This is the common thread of most religions. The law of religion is obey your god, or suffer a terrible after life. The commandments of God's are always followed with a threat of punishment. To understand the reasons behind religion is to understand the need for religion in the first place.

Control. The very first civilizations on earth were diverse, and solid in the natural abilities of mankind. Humanity evolved in the years before Christ, and as time marched forward, the very problems we see today exsisted thousands of years ago. These "Sins" were the natural outcome of humans. Sex, love, food, shelter, money, and all else was our first steps into the world of the human mind. Then came all the problems one would expect when you have thousands of people living under one roof so to speak.

Religions were constructed to control civilizations. As with even the people who lived during the time of the Pyramids, had a set conscience influence of religions control. Also set around the idea of a horrible after life if one was to not follow the words of the gods.

Today not all that much has changed, as we still have those religions, who influence by the means of threats, they continue to survive in smaller numbers then the great blind followers of yesterday.

Faltering in the light of todays religions still allows for the fear of the after life, but today the conscience mind is not all living directly under the same rules, and control of religion. We are not all obligated to pray to gods, or controlled by a influence greater than our understanding of the world.

To be more acquainted with humanity one must toss away religions constraints, and deprive one's self from becoming influenced by god, or the gods that flutter in the winds of evolution.

We have marched further along the way of becoming independent of religion, due to the quality of scientific understandings.

Even as we continue to shrug off the disdain from those who have subjected themselves to following, devouring, and believing in the words of gods. The yet unchallenged mind sets of non-religion continues to grow. The very freedom we have created is what allows for the free thinking, and as religion continues without the ability to change direction, or change themselves to meet with the world as it moves along...gods fall short of true understanding.

As we evolve, religion can not, it has only one foundation to erect it's influence upon, and time has weathered away at the fear, and misguided threats of religion. We have come full circle, from devotion due to social needs, and civil constraints, to a free, and wonderful world of religious freedom. The conscience mind has become aware of the world without being influenced by gods. Without the fears, we will see a better day of humanity as we will find a stronger thread of commonness...freedom.

As humans became more numerous and the populations increased in desirable areas, a code of conduct was needed to prevent constant bloodshed. A structure which could define families and social mores. A definition of marriage, the defense of personal property, the occasions when murder or maiming was and was not appropriate. All the rules which are needed by todays societies including a power structure and a police force to enforce those rules. Many of these "laws" were and still are based on religious beliefs.

If religion is eradicated civilization will lapse back into the barbarism it came from.

I was with you until your final sentence. I am not exactly overwhelmed by the extent that religious belief has suppressed humanity's propensity for barbarism -- seems that it has often been at least partially the cause of (or at least the excuse for) much of the worst examples of barbarism.

Shalom

"Many of these "laws" were and still are based on religious beliefs."

First, they're called laws because that's what they are. No inverted commas needed.

Second, courts (at least in the U.S.) judge according to what is called "positive law," meaning law created by human fiat. While it is true that the content of some of our laws can be traced back to very ancient religious, or religiously-backed, codes, in our system they are not religious. They express policy decisions of the Framers (and amenders) of the United States Constitution, the enactments of the federal and state legislatures, or the published decisions of earlier courts--all human authorities.

That our laws do not express any religious viewpoint is required by the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. The vitality of this position in American jurisprudence is demonstrated by what happened to Chief Justice Roy Moore of the Alabama Supreme Court. He tried to impose, symbolically, a blatant statement of religious authority on the highest court of his state, and in consequence was removed from office by his own colleagues

Did anybody notice what Nano was saying....I don't think HE did....

"As humans became more numerous and the populations increased in desirable areas, a code of conduct was needed to prevent constant bloodshed. A structure which could define families and social mores. A definition of marriage, the defense of personal property, the occasions when murder or maiming was and was not appropriate. All the rules which are needed by todays societies including a power structure and a police force to enforce those rules."

He's basically admitting that the need for a code of conduct was based on increased population.

Ergo, the need for RELIGION (which he cites as the source of that conduct)...was not some "divine inspiration"....but simple DEMOGRAPHIC need for a unified societal code.

IOW, he's saying religion (via religious morality)...was created by Man.

or frank?

I refer you to Luke 23:34 Jesus on the cross. “Father forgive them, they know not what they do.”

Your speech may have emboldened you, even moved the hearts of the ignorant, but it is the voice of the fool in my perspective. Go boldly into the dark night my friend for you have no idea what lies on the other side of the grave. And you bravely tell the rest of the world we can never know either. Well I have a myriad of reasons to know you are wrong. And I rejoice and remain grateful.

Go ahead and post our war cry on the board for all your friends. Again, it emboldens you, but moves me to pity. “Believe or suffer in the after life. This is the common thread of most religions… To understand the reasons behind religion is to understand the need for religion in the first place. Control.”

Control, yeah, sounds cool sharperchef. It’s all so black and white isn’t it? Just ignore a million examples of martyrs and missionaries and saints and Christian soldiers sacrificing their life for a sick and dying world and tell us all that they are all idiots who are giving their money to some TV evangelist because they are not smart like you. And, yes, you are right about one thing --- there is a price to pay for disobedience because God is both merciful and just. You want your cake and eat it too, well God says No. So play your stupid head games and impress the girls and your friends. Everybody loves a fool. And let me be clear to you about salvation. For most people it has very little to do with belief and everything to do with charity. Matthew 25 could not be more clear.

Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;

I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'

"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'

"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

.

You and others are too stupid, narcissistic, lazy, or apathetic to see the obvious. That is why you hold on to the asinine idea that evolution could have happened by chance without any intelligent designer. That is when I am convinced there is a devil and one who has a sense of humor no less. He can fool the “clever” with something as simple as that. I do not even want to discuss evolution by chance or by “natural selection” JGC’s god full of 50 cent words which mean nothing more than either something intelligent directed it or it is a way of saying something intelligent directed it but being careful not to call it that. Such a joke, but it nauseates me, too.

Jesus said “an evil age is eager for a sign but no sign will be given it except that of Jonah.” What that means to me is that so many of you obstinate people are so full of yourself that you are incapable of seeing the signs, be it the miracles, the lives of the saints, the reason of His Words, the acts of charity, the influence of Christ upon history, et al. that in effect, no sign is given unto you. Drift off one day into your grandmother’s house and sit in her bedroom chair. Her statue of the blessed mother on the night stand all of a sudden begins to weep tears of blood before your eyes. Now you are going to tell me that would not shake you to your core? You going to ignore it or call it cheap trick? Not a chance in hell. You would be so frightened for your life and your soul at that moment that it would change you forever and scare you to death. So all you cool cats out there, quit insulting me and others by calling scores of statues bleeding cheap tricks. That speaks volumes of you, not the statue. It tells me how desperate you are to avoid the inevitable --- i.e. death and judgment. JGC and his ilk demand proof of God. Fatima is proof of God. And your lame rebuttals to it are proof only of your obstinacy and foolishness.

Yes, cheap tricks is all they are. How undignified of God. And there are so many, scores of them. <link>

Surely they are all fake because we did find one or two that are, didn’t we? Yes, you probably have and settles it. They are all fake. So is the Shroud, so is the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico. (Be sure not to delve into the findings too deeply though, it may become problematic for you.) I always thought it rather curious that Snopes.com never dared tackle those bleeding statues but was quick as a cat to diffuse any other claim of supernatural origin or the inexplicable.

Zeitoun, Egypt, 1968. Half a million Arabs see what surely is the Virgin Mary on rooftop of a Christian Coptic cathedral maybe 30 different nights. She bows before the cross, she blesses the crowds, she does not speak but moves about freely, fluently, an icy image of her, yet very human. Most photographs of her do not produce any image, but then again, some do. Curious in itself. There are white dove like birds that appear in the dark hours of the night flying at dizzying speeds every time Mary appears. No one can explain that, either. There are huge plumes of smoke of various colors that appear which no one has an explanation for either. Everyone who sees her (which are the majority but not all, God has his reasons) agree it is of Mary. The only defense they can possibly muster is JGC’s laborious list of questions that are filled with desperation and totally void of common sense or reason. In other words, you put a duck in front of JGC’s face and he will deny it is a duck because the fact it walks, talks, looks, smells, tastes, and feels like a duck are almost inconsequential facts. I am steeped in self loathing for wasting my time here. But all you confident doubters are sure it is another “cheap trick.” God would never do that. So let us carry on with our lives and live them as we please. Yes, we shall die, but there is nothing we can do about it that will matter. Meanwhile, let us keep up our search for this so-called God. One thing we can be sure of, Catholics are idiots and fools. It’s all about control. Surely we are not so stupid as they.

' In other words, you put a duck in front of JGC’s face and he will deny it is a duck because the fact it walks, talks, looks, smells, tastes, and feels like a duck are almost inconsequential facts."

>>Put a duck in front of me and I'll readily agree it's a duck. The problem is you keep pointing to unepxlained lights on top of a buildings, and when I agree "Yep, that's an unexplained light on top of that building" you insist "No it's not! It's a miraculous incarnation of the Virgin Mary!"

Standard question re: the Zeitun event: how was the light positively identified as being a representation of the virgin Mary, rather than Mary Magdelene, or Sarah, or Rebecca? Or Joseph of Arimethea in drag, for that matter?

Actually, Jeff, I must disagree. Religion, i.e., a need to imagine the supernatural, seems to be a part of our genetic heiritage and will never be entirely extinguished. I don't seem to share such a need myself but it does seem to be there.

On the rest of your post, I more or less agree. Religion does, in fact, provide a tool of social organization (or control) that can and is abused. On possible answer is might be a "reality-based" religion that recognizes and respects science and would also allow for a positive social control. I don't know what such a religion would look like but it would seem to provide a way forward in social evolution.

I was skimming through JV-12's reply and something caught my eye.

You say that a common feature of religion is the threat of punishment in an afterlife but I have to disagee. In most (all?) primitive religions, the punishment or reward is in life and maybe not that far away. Only when knowledge and understanding expanded to reveal the holes in the shaman's worldview did the reliance on an afterlife become the sole recourse of religion.

“As humans became more numerous and the populations increased in desirable areas, a code of conduct was needed to prevent constant bloodshed. A structure which could define families and social mores”

>>A human society, and an implicit social contract, in other words.

“A definition of marriage, the defense of personal property, the occasions when murder or maiming was and was not appropriate. “

>>A civil authority (i.e., government.

“All the rules which are needed by todays societies including a power structure and a police force to enforce those rules.”

>>A legal system.

“Many of these "laws" were and still are based on religious beliefs.”

>>here’s where I believe you’ve got it backwards—societies incorporated existing codes of conduct into the religious traditions they authored, not the other way around.

“If religion is eradicated civilization will lapse back into the barbarism it came from.”

>>Why? Assume religion was eradicated tomorrow—what reason would we have, as a society, to abandon the rule of law we’ve observed for centuries?

JV-12, curious on your definition of "proof of God"...

again, if God is PROVED (by the dictionary defintion of that word), then what is there to have FAITH in?

I'd don't have "faith" that gravity is real or that if I stick my hand in a flame it will get burned....so what "faith" do you have, if you KNOW things for certain?

JGC:

“If religion is eradicated civilization will lapse back into the barbarism it came from.”

>>Why? Assume religion was eradicated tomorrow—what reason would we have, as a society, to abandon the rule of law we’ve observed for centuries?

Because... don't you see. Without religion there is nothing!. No sentience, no ethical code, no reason to be kind to another person. Without the threat of metaphysical harm in the afterlife people are evil mean and nasty critters. Totally deviod of any positive feeling, dirty muckraking bottom feeders with no conscience, no understanding of cause and effect, even from a self serving standpoint. There MUST be a God overseeing it all and MOST OF ALL being worshipped by the majority.

</sarcasm> It's been one of those weeks... is all I can say.

forgot

"mouth breathing, dirty, muckraking bottom feeders."

Sowwy.

JV-12:

“You and others [who disagree with me] are too stupid, narcissistic, lazy, or apathetic to see the obvious.”

Yeah, we get it already. Really, you could save yourself a lot of time by simply stating your opinion on the subject at hand and then typing the above. No muss, no fuss.