I’ve asked this before, but reptilicus’ question for nano has made me think it might be interesting to pursue again.

Thought experiment: You’ve studied scripture, you’ve prayed, and you sincerely believe that you’ve been lead by the Holy Spirit to the understanding that abortion represents an act of murder, that it’s permissible to kill in the defense of an innocent life, and that it is god’s express will that you immediately pick shoot dead your next door neighbor, who’s a physician who performs abortions at a public health clinic, before he can leave for work.

What possible justification could you give for refusing to do what you sincerely believe your god has commanded you to do?

It seems to me that if one’s faith is genuine and one is sincerely convinced this is god’s will there can be NO excuse for failing to act—refusing to do so because there will be adverse legal consequences—the possibility of imprisonment or execution—is self-centered and cowardly.

So that's the fundamental question: doesn’t one have an absolute and inescapable moral responsibility to act in accord with god’s will as they understand, regardless of any other stricture or concern?

Michael Griffin, Paul J. Hill, John Salvi, and of course Eric Rudolph.

Insane? Sure. But ACTING as they were also SAYING...sure, as well.

So, what IS the reason?....that so many of these "abortion is murder" types won't step up and stop "murderers" as those "gentlemen" did?

It's not "two wrongs don't make a right"...because after those killings, the Hard Core "pro-lifers" were only tepidly critical of those men...a few even applauded.

So, it must be fear of legal prosecution, which MEANS that they care more about their OWN life (and liberty) than the lives of those "babies", huh?

I mean, if the analogy were true...and a doctor going into a day's work at an abortion clinic was "like a guy with a machine gun going into a kindergarden"...and YOU believed that...

wouldn't you (if the cops would do nothing) take up a pistol and shoot that "machine gunner" before he entered the school? Or atleast try to tackle him and subdue him?

But they don't......why?

Perhaps because they DON'T REALLY BELIEVE what they're saying....

or perhaps they do, but are just (like many) cowards.

Next up, Nano telling us "There is an answer, but I'm not telling YOU!" (and various fifth grade playground axioms)

JGC, are you trying to say that all pro-life folks accept the premise that God is affirmatively commanding them to kill to prevent abortion? Because, it seems to me, at a minimum, the difference between the proposition that it is permissible to kill to protect the innocent and a positive command so to do are two different things. I realize your hypothetical assumes that the actor has come to the (sincere) conclusion that such a duty exists, but later it seems that you are conflating that position with the beliefs of any and all pro-life adherents.

Well, I'm not so sure it isn't the "two wrongs" principle at issue, but off the top of my head, perhaps the serious breach of the civil order, and concomitant and foreseeable breakdown in said civil order, may cause some to eschew this course of action; perhaps the proposed actor also has a vocation as a parent/spouse, etc., and the consequence of action would not be borne soley by the actor; perhaps the proposed actor sees no opportunity for redemption of the doctor (a prodigal son type belief), perhaps they entrust the souls of the children to the mercy of God, or perhaps, they do not find an affirmative command to kill under the circumstances so described. I'm sure there are many and many better reasoned views.

Of course, moral cowardice can't be ruled out either, or maybe more accurately moral laziness. I think it was Chesterton who said that Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been tried and found difficult, and hence not followed.

I think it was Chesterton who said that Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been tried and found difficult, and hence not followed.

It's a lot easier than being an Orthodox Jew. It's really not that hard to keep track of all the commandments a Christian is required to follow. It's also easier than being Buddhist.

Maybe being a Catholic is hard, but I don't think being most kinds of Protestant is really all that difficult.

anxiousmofo:

Maybe being a Catholic is hard, but I don't think being most kinds of Protestant is really all that difficult.

Well, certainly not as the faith is typically practiced anyway...

I'm not trying to say that all pro-life folks accept the premise that God is affirmatively commanding them to kill to prevent abortion. I'm simply asking a question: if you did sincerely believe that youw ere lead to an understanding that God is affirmatively commanding you to kill to prevent abortion, what recourse would you have other than to act in accord with his wishes?

If you beleived it was god's rule you worship at mass on Sunday, you'd do so--right?

If you believed it was god's rule you don't engage in extra- or pre-marital sex, you wouldn't--right?

If you believed it was god's will you t kill to prevent abortion, you would --right?

If the answer is yes to the first to but no to the last, how do you justify your decision to act contrary to god's express will?

...acting in accord with what you understood to be god's express will constituted two wrongs making a right would justify opposing god's express will?

Isn't that simply a case of denying god's authority? Saying "Sorry, god, but I knwow better"?

"So that's the fundamental question: doesn’t one have an absolute and inescapable moral responsibility to act in accord with god’s will as they understand, regardless of any other stricture or concern?"

Defintely.

I the case of the abortion doctor, you can stop him witout killing him if you are a good shot. Blow his lower arms off. A small, fast explosive bullet to the elbow works well for that. It will take him some time to learn to operate that baby scalder and womb vacuum with his feet from a wheelchair. And then you can come back and blow both of his legs off at the knees. Two wonderful examples from one doctor. Maximum efficiency. God would be pleased with that.

Dd

Of course it is easy to be a Protestant. You just have to endure the hate of the whole world because God loves you and not them and they are jealous and hate God vehemently with all their hearts and souls.

Jesus didn't say: "I have come that you may have life and have it more difficult!"

He did say: "I have come so that you may have life and have it to the full!"

Having life to the full doesn't mean mindless chanting all the time or hard rituals or waiting for some priest to take yor petition behind the curtain. It means having life hand in hand with God Himself.

"Take my yoke upon you and learn from me for I am gentle and humble and you will find rest for your souls."

As one little Chinaman I know has said, "Life with God up to my armpits everyday for 18 hours, 7 days a week stirring communist effluvium with a canoe paddle for 20 years is better than any kind of life without Jesus." The average lifespan of a communist effluvium stirrer was about 3 months.

Or the little North Korean who was found out with his small house church who said "Life with God and getting run over flattened by a steam roller with my congregation is better than life without God." His whole congregation agreed. Not one got up and denounced Christ, not one, and they all sang hymns until the slow moving roller ran up past their hips and crushed the air out of them. The little pastor was the last one to go "crunch" for God. Not even a kid got outta line, and not a voice waivered in praising hymns while they were being killed one by one, popping like those little plastic air bubbles they pack goods in to pad them. I wonder what "What a Friend We Have in Jesus " sounds like in popping North Korean.

God help me I could measure up half way to that standard by His grace.

This is why, one day, the saints will be allowed to have at the lefties. Oh Lord, I wanna kill pinkos. I hold pinkos responsible for every person ever murdered by any commie anywhere on earth. We could have stopped them if it wasn't for FDR and Truman and followong demoncRATs. Left to MacArthur and Patton (who was murdered because he knew too much) our commie problems would have been solved before the Berlin Airlift. That's why every leftist fellow travellor and Pinko fuck that hasn't repented and fallen on his face before God in absolute horror of his sins, the murder of half a trillion persons off the face of the earth in the name of humanism, is going to burn, burn, burn,and God's saints are going to have a very satisfying role in delivering them to their fate.

Praise God to whom belongs vengeance. He will do a hundred times better the job that I could do.

"Woe is he who falls into the hand of vengeful God."

Death to demoncRATs!

Dd

Simple. We sin. But you see, JGC, Christ died for all our sins, past, present, and future. It is called Blessed Assurance.

Catholics miss church on Sunday. If they get to a preist before they die and confess and do pennance and receive absolution, they won't go to hell, but maybe Purgatory. Limbo is off the table these days, I guess....

Protestants have as much infidelity as the rest of us, or at least the same amount of divorce, I hear tell, but then, who is really a believer and who is just a member of churchianity?

When God calls a killer, he usually finds a pretty willing spirit. He's not going to force Mother Theresa types to take up a Frankish Broad Axe and go berserk amongst the Jihadders. But He will call Richard the Lionhearted. If he wants a fat sniper, I'm all kinds of ready to plant bombs, fling bombs, shoot people for God, to the bitter end. so far the Scripture says, "nada" and God says, "Hold on a bit."

Besides, if God wants corpses, he doesn't need a sniper. The Angel of Death is at His beck and call.

But generally, yes. If you are convicted by the Holy Spirit of the Living God to do anything, you had better just go ahead and do it. Look what happened to Jonah when he refused to do his duty and go preach to Nineveh (Assyrians). And despite Jonah's feelings toward the wretched Ninevites he was exactly the man for the job as Nineveh repented in sack cloth and ashes at Jonah's preachng and the God of the Israelites was accorded high honor by the Assyrians for a few more years. They figer Jonah saved a quarter million souls from the Assyrian nation to go to heaven throough Jonah's reluctant preaching.

Look what happened to unbelieving Pharoah when He disdained God's Prophets who brought him God's Word. That is the role you need to see yourself in, JGC. God's prophets have come to you in this forum for a decade almost now and you resist His Word at every phrase.

Despite your opinion, God does know what He is doing.

Dd

predicto:

"So that's the fundamental question: doesn’t one have an absolute and inescapable moral responsibility to act in accord with god’s will as they understand, regardless of any other stricture or concern?"

Defintely.

I the case of the abortion doctor, you can stop him witout killing him if you are a good shot. Blow his lower arms off. A small, fast explosive bullet to the elbow works well for that. It will take him some time to learn to operate that baby scalder and womb vacuum with his feet from a wheelchair. And then you can come back and blow both of his legs off at the knees. Two wonderful examples from one doctor. Maximum efficiency. God would be pleased with that.

Dd

Then why haven't YOU done that, Dawwgy?

Or is it that you care more about your own life and liberty than the deaths of "babies"?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was not accepting the premise that God's express will required the believer to kill the abortion doctor in responding to Rep.

Well, yes, one must act according to what he or she understands God's will to be.

Really? Love one's enemies? I have a hard enough time loving my own extended family some times, let alone serving my bride. If one looks at a person with lust, you have committed adultery? Looks at! Whoever is angry with his brother is in danger of the judgment? Take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Me?

I understand you to be saying that there are x number of commandments to be observed for the Orthodox Jew. The Christian is called to the conversion of heart, and I submit that is at least as difficult if not moreso than following a particular set of rules, no matter how numerous (of course, I don't know much about how those commandments have been interpreted by Judaism's various adherents, so maybe it ends up being similar?).

I rather think you are inadvertently proving Chesterton's point.

I don't know what you mean by it's harder to be a Buddhist, but then, I don't know much about Buddhism. Can you elaborate?