There are good teachers, bad teachers and everything in between. Teaching is a higher profile profession than most in that there are roughly two dozen "evaluations" (albeit informal) that go home every day. As with most news, the bad news is easier to remember and therefore the stereotype that teachers are lazy and overpaid takes takes shape. If you're not a teacher, take an honest look at the "pay-to-work rate" ratio of your own profession (I said honest).

That being said, I think you'll attract better teachers when you have "better" students. For starters, the idea that every child should have a liberal arts high school education is insane. Where I teach (a public high school), a not insignificant segment of the student body would be better served learning a trade instead of being shoved into an algebra II, chemistry, or physics class. The students I'm referring to are not the school's incorrigible "bad" kids (those students are a whole other thread), but these students become discipline problems when they're placed into courses where they don't belong. The effect is obvious--the teacher can't teach because he's dealing with unruly students, and therefore the students who actually want to learn, can't. Now mix in the truly disruptive students, relative low pay, bad reputation and little respect. If you're a high quality college graduate who's not immensely idealistic, wouldn't you probably do something else too?

"you'll attract better teachers when you have 'better' students. For starters, the idea that every child should have a liberal arts high school education is insane."

Absolutely.

One of America's reigning delusions (and the premise of NCLB) is that all students have equal potential and innate ability, and if students don't do well, it is the fault of the teachers and the school. Few in the education establishment are willing to accept the conclusions of people who have devoted their lives to studying human intelligence because their findings are politically incorrect.

It is the quality of the students that determines how good the school is. If you dumped the Harvard students out of Harvard and replaced them with students from a community college, what would be the quality of Harvard's graduates?

I'm not a teacher, but from what I read, the quality of the average school has declined precipitously over the last 20 or 30 years because our reigning delusion requires, as you pointed out, that the dummy kids be forced into classes where they don't belong. Combine the anger and frustration of these kids with the pathology of the "bad kids" who shouldn't be in the school either, and I would guess that the daily work experience of most public school teachers is a nightmare.

I am a teacher, and I will say that the single greatest problem in education is classroom discipline. Period. Parents are not just ambivalent, they are often hostile. Hostile to the idea that their precious child could do any wrong. It is very difficlut to get any classroom discipline to stick. Once the parents complain, administrators flip and go to the parents side, because admin is afraid the parents will complain to the Superintendent, therefore jeapordizing the principals job.

Much of this stems from the high prevalence of lawsuits today. My child got a C, better get an attorney. God forbid parents take responsibility for the actions of their children these days.

BTW, this doesn't even touch on the increasing number of diagnosed autistic studets in schools today. I have no problem with autistic students, I have a huge problem with districts not providing proper services for these students.

I agree that student discipline is one of the biggest problems that teachers face. I'm there to teach your child, not discipline him. The more time I spend teaching him how to behave, the less time I have to teach him physics.

I love telling the story of a teacher-friend of mine who called the mother of a misbehaving student. Her response: "I don't call you at home when my son's misbehaving on the weekends, do I?"

Nice.

Isolating the chronic trouble makers in their own class or school is the only solution, isn't it? Either that, or the educational experience of all the students is destroyed.

Hi. I'm one of those troublemakers - you know, the ones who are ruining the school system. I've had more disciplinary issues than you can shake a stick at, including suspensions. I knew the principal's office better than my own classrooms at times. I've been in remedial classes and have also attended a community college. Oh yes, and lest we forget, I've been diagnosed autistic. Of course, this means I've had my share of IEPs. In short, I am your worst nightmare. One of those 'dummy kids' who needs to be separated from the other kids so they don't get contaminated by my idiocy and bad behavior.

Your logic is flawless. I'm going to drop out of my (high-ranked) college now, because I clearly do not belong there.

Intellicate,

Good for you. I'm glad you've found modest success despite your earlier troubled years. I would hazard to guess, however, that you are more the exception than the rule.

I'd also bet that you did more harm to the educational future of the kids around you compared to the success that you currently enjoy. In short, the greater good would have been served if there were some real consequences for you earlier. And who knows, maybe you would have straightened out sooner too.

I was in public school a number of years ago. When I attended school there were very few disruptive kids they knew there would be "hell to pay" if they were a problem in school. First there would be some kind of punishment at school then they would "catch it" when they got home as well.

There were no chronic problem students that were a constant disruption. The closest thing to that were one or two who came from very bad family cirumstances.

Teachers were respected in the community and while they might not have been "well paid" they were paid enough to support a family of course this was before the days of almost every family having two wage earners.

sisyphus:

The system failed the student as he was a square peg; "you," or others, attempted to fit into a round hole. If he is autistic, how are his actions intentional? And you would toss him for this? Are there no institutions or work houses?

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the way you teach algebra or physics needs to be altered? Perhaps, there should be other classes that maybe they could fit into.

Even the vocational student can advance further from algebra, trig, and science unless you believe a CAD Designer has no need of angles or the quadratic equation. The problems with the ediucational process today are not so much teach related as they are systemic. "No Student Left A Dime" is not helping regular education by any means.

Well put, sisyphus.

Intellicate doesn't give a damn about the harm done to the other students who happened to get caught in the maelstrom he created. It's all about him: how the system failed him, what people owe him, not what responsibility he has or had to anyone else.

The school system failed me too, Intellicate. I have suffered from ADD all my life, and school was a real struggle for me. I didn't know what ADD was until a few years ago. I just knew I was different. No teacher ever recognized it. But there were always 25 or 35 other kids in the class too. Is it reasonable to expect one person with that many charges to be able to pay much attention to one student and still teach the class? Hell no.

I can say that I kept my suffering to myself. I didn't make anyone else's life miserable.

run, it would be great if the entire curriculum could be customized for every student. And, while we are at it, why not provide every student with his own teacher and get rid of classroom instruction?

Is there a limit on how much money "the system" can spend to educate each student?

Mac, you hit the nail on the head. It is too much to expect that the school system can make up for bad parenting. It is the responsibility of the parents to discipline their kids and teach them to behave in school. It is also the primary responsibility of the parents to recognize and deal with their kids' behavioral and learning problems, working in conjunction with what resources the school system can provide.

The schools now are a dumping ground for irresponsible parents.

Looking back at the teachers I had, I suspect that many who were, in my opinion, the best that I encountered, would not have stacked up well in a school with severe disciplinary issues. They should be rated for their efforts to teach those students interested in learning and getting ahead - not their efforts to entertain and and discipline the trouble makers.

Unfortunately, the school system has beccome a dumping ground for the dregs of society's children. Segregate these kids in their own facility and don't bother hiring teachers to monitor them. These kids need discipline and a system to keep them out of the malls and away from shoplifting opportunities. Hire those who can do this.

Unless the riff raff can be changed, there is really no hope of teaching them anything. Its just a waste of money to pay for highly skilled educators to do this.

The greatest challenge facing classroom teachers today is classroom discipline. Most teachers that I know try very hard, but it is very difficult. You often face indifferent or hostile parents. What do you do then? Nothing. They continue to disrupt the learning process for others.

Most of the learned people who write articles such as these are not classroom teachers. They have not been in the classroom, or, they were in the classroom years ago. They have no clue how hard it is, other than anecdotally.

More men are not the answer. Discipline a female student, and you run the risk of being accused of sexual assault out of revenge. Then, despite what you hear on the news, you are assumed guilty until proven innocent. And no, I have not been in that position, but I have seen colleagues in that postion.

Once again, and I have posted this elsewhere, many of the issues facing schools today can be traced back to the willingness of people to file a lawuit, and the eagerness and greed of the lawyers. People will sue for anything these days. Don't like the grade your teacher gave you, get an attorney. So the school systems, afraid of a costly legal battle, cave in and let the students have their way. I have personally seen the dance administrators will perform to make sure a student's parents don't sue. Who sufers in this, the average student sitting in class trying to get an education.

As far as autistic students in the classroom, they are usually not a huge problem. Only when there is a severely autistic student, and they are not provided an aid. No, the big problem is the ADHD kids, and parents who refuse to medicate them. I will say this, people who say there is no such thing as ADHD, and that teachers are just unwilling to handle rowdy students, have never seen a severely ADHD kid in action. When they are medicated, they are fine, And quite honstly, the ones that can voice it are greatful, because they stop getting in trouble. But when the parents either refuse to give the meds, or, can't get their act together enough to give meds on a regular basis, ADHD kids can ruin a classroom. I have seen many students lose huge amounts of learning time because of this.

I don't blame the children. They are who and what they are. It is the fault of the parents who refuse to deal with the issue. And the problem is only getting worse.

Oh dear! I am also a high school teacher, but do not see disruptive students as those above do. Usually they grow out of it by the time they are seniors. Growing up is a process by which we gradually realize our responsibility for our own success. Most students learn this, especially with the appropriate response to failure by parents.
Yes, parents CAN be a problem. I was harassed by a parent for two years (long past the time necessary for the student to actually DO the work), to change a student's grade because it would not look good for her to have a 'C' when applying to college. The parent was irate, rude and above all she was teaching her daughter that she need not honestly earn her grades. Yet this circumstance is rare.
I have also had several students laughingly apologize for past behavior. I tend to smile when this happens. We are all in a process. Teaching is partly a belief in doing the right thing, even in the face of resistance and doubt. That right thing may include talks after class, referal to the administration, calls to parents (even to praise good students), and/or removal from class. YES this takes more time. And YES, all students learn something when we respond without anger, but do respond with consequences to bad behavior. To teach in public high school you must have a sense of humor, you must be willing to let a student not like you when you hold them responsible, and you must be flexible about the changes they are going through, knowing those years are all about change.
This is a difficult, and at times impossible job, yet everything that is worthwhile takes effort. Teaching may be the clearest illustration of that fact. Blaming each other, getting angry at parents who may not know any better, and seeing students as permanently flawed by what they do today, are not helpful or successful strategies.