I find these posts so disheartening... but wonder if they really are real and if this is just how the female mind works. I loved (and still love) my first wife terribly and did everything to try and support her. Yet it seemed never a day went by when she didn't find something terrible enough to reconsider our entire relationship.

Against my better judgement I got married a second time after that relationship ended. At least this time I don't feel like the relationship is going to unravel if she interprets something I say negatively, but I so often feel as though it is imperitive that she find something in my behavior or what I say to feel offended by - no matter how much I try. This makes marriage exhausting!!! I read that excerpt of the writer describing himself as a plankton who would be lost... I too would be a lost plankton at this point if the relationship ended, but it's because I don't have time to make or spend time with friends, she is adamant that I not discuss personal things with family or anybody else. I encourage her in both these things. I love my wife dearly, but wonder if this is all worth it... and then I read posts like these and feel as though women are just selfish, petty, powermongers who exercise control over their spouses through accusations and guilt trips...

A husband certainly should give his wife the utmost in respect and support, but he should be able to expect this in return too... Modern women need to tone down the entitlement and appreciate marriage - or skip it. Truly, what do you need men for anymore anyway?

I was saddened by your posts and those of other men. I'm a woman; I'm not married but currently a little over a year and a half into my so-far longest relationship. Marriage has not been part of our conversations yet, but even when we've had terrible fights I've been able to remember what I like about him (and obviously he was able to get over my faults as well, because we kept winding up back together).

I consider myself very lucky that I don't come from a family that sees marriage as something on a checklist. One of my best friends from home is also in no rush.

I hope things improve for you.

How sad for you! I am one of the few "traditional" women I know. I respect and honor my husband and do not feel the need to berate him constantly. Most other women feel like this sense of entitlement is what makes them "modern" or "progressive."

In marriage you should realize some things are just way too hurtful to say. Some things you have to say, but as my mom told me growing up, "pick your battles."

I'd have to disagree with you there. I don't think most women feel that sense of entitlement, in all honesty, there's a sense of entitlement to both parties often times in modern marriages. People don't know how to fight fair and discuss responsibility.

The differences come I think when parents take the responsible course and teach both boys and girls how to take care of themselves and how to treat one another with respect. My fiance and I have lived together for five and a half years, we share responsibilites and don't shy away from a conflict. We've had few fights, and mainly those just end up being debates. If we get too heated, we walk away and come back to discuss it when the cooling off has completed. We've never insulted or berated each other.

I learned from my parents what was appropriate and he, watching his parents, learned what not to do.

My husband and I are both volitile people, so we argue regularly... but no matter how angry I may get, I would not trade my marriage for anything.

He has taught me something I have never seen anyone else do: during fights, often someone will say something hurtful and mean just because they can, without really meaning it.

My honey has the admirable ability to stop, and say "I am really pissed off, but I should not have said that. It was unfair, and I apologise." and then jump back into the fray.

It has taken me a few years to learn to emulate that style of fighting, but it has done us a lot of good.

Freki

Wow, I'm glad I'm not the only one experiencing these difficulties. Marriage is tough, and I've done it three times. My first wife was a mental basket case, and embittered by my tour overseas in the Army we divorced after 5 years. I inspired my second wife to go to college (she was a hairdresser), then worked to support her when she decided to enter law school. She woke up one day and said she didn't love me, wanted to live the life of Ally McBeal, and we divorced after 6 years. Despite all this I still (perhaps foolishly) valued intelligent, independent women, and married a third woman whom I met in law school.

It's been 9 years, we partied together great, and she is the hottest woman on the planet. But when we fought it was vicious, as she had never been in a long term relationship and deliberately says the absolute most hurtful things. We've stuck it out, and have just had our first baby, but she continues to ridicule, insult and dismiss me when we have disagreements. I'm trying to be tolerant, and its even clear to her that her parents and antagonizing gay brother were not good training for long term relationships, but the constant assault on my guilt and personal sense of self-worth is beginning to numb me and enables me to see a day I can live without her. I don't drink, smoke, have any friends, watch TV, or game anymore, about the only thing I get to do is fight in the occasional martial arts tournament (as I get older that is fading). There is no conclusion to my story yet, but seeing these comments and reflections makes me feel a bit better, like I"m not the only one suffering and wondering. I share my comments so that others might relate and reflect on their situation.

Did I make the wrong choice in women? Am I too much of a romantic? How does one cope in the face of stubborn, insenstive adversity? I don't want to give up, but for me, marriage is not an institution, it's a privilege. Where do I draw the line at "effort?"

cnebbe,

I've been there, man, in my last marriage. Run, run far, run fast, run without notice or excuses or couples counseling. Run during the day while she's at work and take no more than you can pack in your car in a hurry before you lose your guts and crawl around your so-called life some more. Run to a shrink and find out why you value your own happiness so little, and why you persist in the delusion that if you can just figure out how to make this thankless spoiled bitch happy you will finally be happy yourself.

It won't happen. Look around you - is there anyone in your house, other than the dog, who is sincerely interested and invested in your happiness, yourself included? I'm betting no.

She won't be happy with you, ever. She won't be satisfied even after she's swallowed your soul, career, social life, and savings account like oreos in milk. Run. Run like hell. Run like hell because you've established a relationship where you are a neutered puppy and she's defined all the terms of every argument. Run because you've already given away all the territory and you have no ground left to defend. Run because you've got no fight left in you and you gave all your power away when you were still dating. Run because you aren't enough for her now, and you never were, and you never will be, and what she needs is someone who would have stood up to her a while ago and it's too damn late for that now.

Just my $.02, but take it from one who knows - life does not have to be like this.

Cnebbe and Wassabi-

I am very stricken to hear how horrible your experiences have been for you. As a woman in my early 20's, my mother taught me that I need to be independent, have my own life... but have equal respect for the life of the man I choose to be with. That these women would knock out your support systems... You shoud friends, hobbies, aside from her, at the very least families to talk to, if you are not a social butterfly. She should be encouraging and cultivating you as an individual, cherishing you-and berating you only when you deserve it (gaming in excessive of 3 hours a day might need a little dress down, for instance, just as if she spent too much money or time on any of her hobbies.)

I suppose my advice comes too late, but never marry a woman who does not trust you to be an individual. And if I may say as an armchair psychologist, both of you get yourself to therapists. There is no reason you should be finding yourselves in 2nd, or 3rd, marriages with someone who does not respect you.

Here's my advice, for what it's worth: don't be tolerant. Tell your wife when she's doing something hurtful, and tell her that she can't do that to you. Nothing that you do deserves that kind of treatment. She will most likely agree with that statement, at least when she's calm. (If not, you might need to deal with some other issues....)

Something else you might try is to put the actual problems front and center and deal with them. If you do something that pisses her off, make her tell you what it is and decide what to do about it. You can't fix it if you don't know its broken.

Personally I don't draw a line for "effort", but I have given up on re-hashing certain battles. I simply point out that we've been over that territory already, and reached either a solution or an impasse. If either doesn't work anymore, we might have to revisit the issue, but mostly those fights don't need to happen.

Meanwhile, start drinking, smoking, making friends, and watching TV! Seriously - you need to like yourself, so you have a leg to stand on when you ask her to remember that she likes you, too.

P.S. Keep training even if you stop competing - I train in BJJ and it's a definite sanity preserver. Helps with that whole self-esteem thing, too.

"P.S. Keep training even if you stop competing - I train in BJJ and it's a definite sanity preserver. Helps with that whole self-esteem thing, too." Fitz is right. You should never ever give up the things you love to make someone else happy. These are the things that make you who you are. If you have to give them up for another person, then that person is wrong for you, and they do not love or respect the person you are. If you stopped training, get right back at it. Do the things that make you happy. We are born alone, and we die alone. Nobody wants to look back at their life with regrets about giving so much up for a someone who left you after twenty years, anyway.

All much appreciated. I am trying to make sure that I take my share ownership in any of our problems, but I have found myself questioning how much of my 'self' I need to give up to make it work. And there's always the self-imposed guilt trip of having made my bed I should lie in it.

Coincidentally, BJJ is an awesome stress relief, been at it about 3 years now! New baby forced me into hiatus, I will definitely hit that mat again as soon as bebe is a little more regular.

Cnebbe I hope you find your way brother.