I have to say that I am not a fan of Beatie. There are always exceptions to stereotypical male and female behavior and for that reason behavior is not a good way to determine gender. But when you start talking about biological functions that only one sex can perform, the lines are pretty clear. Not only could Beatie have adopted, no one needs to have children in the first place.

There are good medical and social reasons for not "going all the way" with a sex change, but any female-to-male transsexual who CHOOSES to get pregnant is not a real female-to-male transsexual. Simple as that. If technology became available that would allow men to carry children, how many do you think would volunteer? What Beatie has done discredits all trans people.

If technology became available that would allow men to carry children, how many do you think would volunteer?

Alot of them, eventually. If only because men seem to think they can do anything better. But I stereotype.

But yes, really. I think alot of men really would choose to carry children if it were possible. It's currently not possible so it's easy to naysay. But I know too many guys who have voiced their own curiosity, and they weren't all transgendered either.

What Beatie has done discredits all trans people.

The same can be said of any MTF transwoman who ever had an erection, ever sired a child, ever had male/female sexual intercourse preoperatively. Transgender people have the bodies that they have. Period. The same is true for any of us, transgender or not. How you choose to live in the reality of your own body is your own decision to make.

I personally don't see what the big deal is in viewing Beatie as a man with female reproductive organs, but I understand that most people do. He could choose to remove these organs to prove to me that he's really the man he claims to be, but ultimately, what does that get him? My stamp of approval?

I mean you no disrespect. My cousin, an MTF transwoman, who was as close to me as a sister (tho I didn't understand how that was possible) completely turned my head around on the reality of her struggle. There are plenty of things I could hold against her in the "not really a woman" dept... she went thru a period of claiming to be a gay man. She lost her virginity to a girl. She peed standing up until she was 15. I even walked in on her playing with herself in the shower once. All of these were typical male things to do. But what the hell, she had to live in this world with the body she had. And if I was in her shoes with her same body I probably would have done alot of the same things. ( I for one know that if I woke up with a dick tomorrow I would be sticking it everywhere I could out of curiosity. How typically male is that? )

The novelty would wear off soon I'm sure... and once I got over that, would having a penis really make me, the woman I know myself to be, a man? Would refusing to use my penis if I had one make me more of a woman? Or would my having opposite sex plumbing just be my cross to bear, however I could?

No one can help having erections, and technically women have them too. Siring a child is a heck of a lot easier than having one grow inside you for nine months and then giving birth to it. And all trans people live gender-normative lives before they realize what their problem is and decide to transition. The problem with Beatie is that she claimed she was a man, took steps to make it a reality, and then decided to take a giant leap back in the other direction while still claiming to be a man. If she had said she'd changed her mind about the being transgendered I wouldn't have an issue. (Everyone makes mistakes).

Also, MTF's are not equally comparable to FTM's. Let's face it, no matter whose criteria you go by, the female body is much more demanding of its owner than the male one. Because of that, an FTM being comfortable using their reproductive organs to their full capacity is not the same as an MTF doing so. MTFs and FTMs have different problems with their assigned gender and encounter different issues in transitioning.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy any of that. If you accept a body parts based definition of your own womanhood, then you will, sorry to be blunt, simply never qualify as a "real" woman. More or less saying that it's "easier" to make a woman out of a man, than the reverse is also hypocritical of you. Not to mention insulting to all women who realize what it takes to live as a woman in this society.

I refuse to accept that my uterus is what defines me as a woman and not a man. Female yes, but this thing we call "woman" in society is a whole other animal. I especially refuse to accept your assertion that my uterus defines me as a woman and there is no way around that, but your lack of a uterus and other "essential" female body parts doesn't disqualify you from being a woman. You can't have it both ways. Or maybe you can have it both ways, but that sure as hell isn't the right way to go about it.

I don't understand Beatie's relationship to his body and gender either. But forcing "she" pronouns on him is just obnoxious, and shows that you have just as much internalized hatred and intolerance of transgender as anyone else here. This is disappointing.

Chinpudding, if appearance, behaviour and plumbing are all disqualified from defining gender, what on earth qualifies?

Choosing to get pregnant and bear a child is an exclusively female behaviour, being nine months pregnant is an exclusively feminine appearance, and no one, I think, will argue about ovaries and vaginas being connected to femininity in some way. Beatie was not even taking hormones; so other than facial hair (not unheard of in women) and a mastectomy (also not rare) the only thing that makes Beatie a "man" was that he says he is.

If him saying he is a man makes him one, why should he need to go through all the surgery and hormones? Could I be a man by simply declaring that I was one?

I am not hating or being intolerant of anyone. Across the board, I am in favour of children having two loving parents, and it looks like the kid does. That is good enough for me. I certainly would not presume to tell Crookedcubed he or she (sorry, I can't tell which from the posts) hates other transsexuals. That way lies madness.

Freki

No, I don't hate myself or other transgendered people, chinpudding. Beatie does not qualify as transgendered to me. I have nothing against people who are in between genders either, as long as they know and admit that's what they are.

If you were really educated about this subject you would know I wasn't just pulling the statements I made before out of my ass either. Any psychiatrist experienced with Gender Identity Disorder will tell you that the hangups MTF's and FTM's have with their assigned sex/gender are not the same.

Lastly I didn't say your reproductive organs defined you as a woman, I said they defined you as a female. Different things. I call myself a man, but I'm honest enough to admit that I will never really be male (unless I went to one of the few doctors who has succeeded in creating a fully functional penis).

Lastly I didn't say your reproductive organs defined you as a woman, I said they defined you as a female. Different things. I call myself a man, but I'm honest enough to admit that I will never really be male (unless I went to one of the few doctors who has succeeded in creating a fully functional penis).

We agree on the difference between being a woman and being a female then. (Honestly, I don't even think of it as "being" a female so much as having a female body. But I seem to differ from most women in this regard. Maybe I have some transgender issues of my own, who knows?)

What I don't understand is why you are unable to extend the same courtesy to Beatie. Because he used his female parts and no self-respecting man would ever do that?

I don't claim to be any kind of expert on transgender. But I do think you make a pretty flimsy argument as to why Beatie is not a "real" transgender person, and therefore not deserving the respect of his preferred pronouns.

Maybe you could never fathom using your original plumbing in spite of your being a man, but that only tells me how you feel about your own body, it doesn't prove to me that you are really a man inside that body. At least it doesn't to me. You living as and publically embracing your identity as a man, inspite of whatever body you happen to *have* is what makes you a man in my eyes.

Not that my opinion counts for anything. But that's what all of this arguing is about, isn't it? Who decides who's really a man or a woman? Do we decide for ourselves, or do we decide it for other people?

If your argument is that public identity is more important than private parts, Beatie still loses because she was public about using her original parts (and would have been even if she wasn't famous - you can't hide a pregnancy from everyone forever).

"Who decides who's really a man or a woman? Do we decide for ourselves, or do we decide it for other people?"

I can decide that I come from the planet Jupiter. If I tell you that, you may disagree with me, and you would have every right to do so. I can try to change your mind but I can't force you.

You state, "behavior is not a good way to determine gender." This could not be further from the truth.

Gender is precisely defined as "Behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex." In other words, because gender refers to these differences between men and women, it is precisely these differences which are perfect and ideal means of determining gender.

Additionally, a transsexual individual is defined as one "who strongly identifies with the opposite sex and may seek to live as a member of this sex especially by undergoing surgery and hormone therapy to obtain the necessary physical appearance."

Thus, there is no "real" or "fake" transsexual when it comes to a woman who wishes to have a child. It is rather humorous that you make transsexuals some type of selective, elite group with "posers" trying to become one. She may still behave and suffer the same mental disorders as those women who do not elect to do the same; it doesn't make her less of a "tranny." It is asanine that men should voluntarily elect to bear children. It is both unatural and degrading. This is the biologic right of human females.