Does this imply that a woman that has a miscarriage is equally responsible for the death of a human being, as "an individual living member of the species Homo sapiens, including the unborn human being during the entire embryonic and fetal ages from fertilization to full gestation." Keywords being from fertilization.

I don't know why people are so afraid of just admiting that life is being KILLED! BFD. Live is KILLED every day in all forms.

So yes, when a women has a miscarriage it means that her body is rejecting this live inside her body, thus her body KILLED that life. BFD.

I support a women's right to KILL anything that is inside of her body.

Well, how many people does it take to murder someone? Each case is different as to the events leading to the cause of death.

Um... abortions are on purpose. That's different.

Miscarriages are the accidental death of a baby. They are tragic but the woman should not be accused of anything, obviously. A rare exception might be if a woman knew she was pregnant and recklessly smoked and drank and did things like that - in those cases she may be partly at fault for the miscarriage - though that's still not "murder."

RalphS:

A rare exception might be if a woman knew she was pregnant and recklessly smoked and drank and did things like that - in those cases she may be partly at fault for the miscarriage - though that's still not "murder."

I don't know of any cases that medication or other drug use has been the cause of miscarriage.

Um... abortions are on purpose. That's different.

So instead of "murder" it's only something between Negligent Homicide and Manslaughter? Society punishes lots of accidents. A drunk who drives a car doesn't *want* to kill anyone.

If a fetus is a real person in a legal sense, then we should treat it that way. I.e. any woman who has a "miscarriage" needs to have her life pulled apart with a criminal investigation to see to what degree she was at fault. A pregnant woman who drinks or smokes is supplying alcohol or tobacco to a minor.

Or we could just admit we don't really want to treat a fetus as a person.

Have you ever known a woman to grieve or cry about a miscarriage? Have you ever heard a woman talk about how glad she was that she had an abortion?

Dbuss - I assume you're talking about those rare possible exceptions I wrote about. The reason I said "rare" and "possible" is that I don't know much about the major causes of miscarriage but as far as I know, they are usually the result of things beyond the woman's control. Miscarriage is, unfortunately, quite common. You don't need a big investigation every time a 90-year-old dies in a nursing home, and you wouldn't need one every time a woman has a miscarriage.

So, yes, I want the unborn treated like human persons. But that does not mean I want a security camera placed in everyone uterus.

Miscarriage is, unfortunately, quite common.

How do you tell the difference between a "miscarriage" and a self induced "abortion"? Or for that matter, even if it was just a miscarriage, we'd *still* need to determine to what degree someone was at "fault". Make a mistake while driving where someone dies as a result and its still a big deal.

So, yes, I want the unborn treated like human persons.

You didn't answer the question. Do you want any pregnant woman who drinks to be arrested for supplying alcohol to a minor? Ditto any smoker?

For that matter do you want any woman to has an abortion to face murder charges which result in a decade in prision or the death penality?

DBuss:

Miscarriage is, unfortunately, quite common.

How do you tell the difference between a "miscarriage" and a self induced "abortion"? Or for that matter, even if it was just a miscarriage, we'd *still* need to determine to what degree someone was at "fault". Make a mistake while driving where someone dies as a result and its still a big deal.

A miscarriage is out of the woman's control, 100% accidental.

A drunk driver is at fault because although they didn't mean to HIT anyone, they DID make the choice to drink and impair themselves and then go operate a motor vehicle, which can be a lethal weapon. If the same person was cold sober while driving, obeying all laws, and some ACCIDENT occured where he killed someone else - they wouldn't be charged with anything.

You asked me how you tell the difference between self induced abortion and miscarriage. Well, how do you tell the difference between the accidental bathtub drowning of an infant and murder? My guess is that in both cases, it's so likely that happened was really an accident that there's no point in investigating it. Unless there is some extraordinary reason to think the mother (or someone else) is at fault for the miscarriage, why look into it? If a woman wants an abortion she's going to keep her pregnancy private to begin with.

I'm not sure what I think about the drinking/smoking thing. Is it currently illegal to smoke in the car with kids? How dangerous is alcohol and tobacco to developing fetus? If it was extremely dangerous to have even one drink (which it's not) then yeah, I'd say it should be illegal to drink while pregnant.

Do I want women who have abortions to face life in prison? No. I believe intent matters, and I give people the benefit of the doubt. I sincerely doubt that many women who have abortions really believe they are killing people.

There are difficult questions that would have the be hammered out if abortion was ever made illegal - I'm not denying that. I just think any commitment to human rights requires it. Still, the goal is not to use the government to prevent every single abortion at any cost. The same as with anything that's currently illegal. Our judicial system is supposed to be stacked heavily in favor of preventing the conviction or harassment of innocent people.

Anything else I can help you with?

My guess is that in both cases, it's so likely that happened was really an accident that there's no point in investigating it.

Without investigating it you have no way to tell if there are "extraordinary reasons". In traffic incidents where people die, the police don't just pat us on our heads and say "you must not have meant it" and send us on our way.

How dangerous is alcohol and tobacco to developing fetus?

Very. Try looking up "fetal alcohol syndrome".

Do I want women who have abortions to face life in prison? No. I believe intent matters, and I give people the benefit of the doubt.

I didn't say "life", I said "10 years". That's what we give to people who get other people killed without meaning it, where it wasn't a pure accident.

I sincerely doubt that many women who have abortions really believe they are killing people.

So how about pro-life women who have abortions? Members of whatever church you belong to? They have abortions too, and they apparently believe what you do. Are we going to send them to prison for life?

Our judicial system is supposed to be stacked heavily in favor of preventing the conviction or harassment of innocent people.

I thought the unborn were innocent *people*?

Sounds to me like you're willing to *say* you consider the unborn to be *people*, but faced with what that would *really* mean, you don't. It's a retorical stance, not reality.

DBuss:

Without investigating it you have no way to tell if there are "extraordinary reasons". In traffic incidents where people die, the police don't just pat us on our heads and say "you must not have meant it" and send us on our way.

How often do you believe that a miscarriage is the woman's fault? Give me your best guess. My guess is "not very often." Car accidents, on the other hand, usually are the fault of one or more drivers. That's why car accidents should be investigated and miscarriages should not be.

DBuss:

I didn't say "life", I said "10 years". That's what we give to people who get other people killed without meaning it, where it wasn't a pure accident.

You said "decade in prison or the death penalty" and I think you were talking about women who had abortions on purpose in that part of your post, but I might have misunderstood you.

DBuss:

So how about pro-life women who have abortions? Members of whatever church you belong to? They have abortions too, and they apparently believe what you do. Are we going to send them to prison for life?

If someone really believes that in getting an abortion they are murdering someone, and if abortion really causes the death of a person (which I believe), then in theory, a long sentence (adjusted on a case-by-case basis for various circumstances) would not be unjust. But I'm not sure how you can really know what a person believes on something like this.

DBuss:

I thought the unborn were innocent *people*?

Yes. My point was that our judicial system prefers to let ten guilty people go free rather than convict one innocent person. There is a strong presumption of innocence and the burden of proof is on the prosecution. Could we better protect the unborn by investigating the heck out of every miscarriage? Yes. We could also better protect Americans from terrorism by passing laws far more invasive than the hated Patriot Act. But I don't believe that either would be worth it. That doesn't mean that I don't really believe that terrorism is bad or that the unborn are persons.

How often do you believe that a miscarriage is the woman's fault?

You are the one who wants to treat fetuses as people, well, we investigate the deaths of people.

To answer your question, if the woman drank or smoked or used drugs, that increases her chances of miscarriage. Legally I'd think that would be enough.

And at the moment abortion is legal. If you are successful at criminalizing it, you should expect that women will *still* have them, just illegally. They will then claim they had miscarriages.

You said "decade in prison or the death penalty" and I think you were talking about women who had abortions on purpose in that part of your post, but I might have misunderstood you.

You're still dodging the question. When you make abortion illegal, what will you do with the women who have one anyway?

Just saying you don't want to put them in prison for life isn't an answer. Does that mean you're good with "just" 10 years, or does that mean you want to let them go?

But I'm not sure how you can really know what a person believes on something like this.

This is why we'd need an investigation.

That doesn't mean that I don't really believe... that the unborn are persons.

Sure it does. Murder is murder, and needs lots of jail time. Abortion doesn't hit your radar as needing the same penalty because it doesn't hit your radar as being the same thing.