How does getting shot down and captured qualify someone as a hero?

All ya gotta do to be a hero these days is wear a uniform or get killed by terrorists. According to Bush anyone who died on 9/11 is a hero and every cop, firefighter, and EMT is a hero.

Not to be ungrateful, but when you make the qualification of "hero" so minor it cheapens the meaning.

Lots of people do great things for our world and not everyone does it with a gun. Our scientists and doctors and writers and teachers have all taken on challenges and improved our country and its people with their work.

If anything, we need to include more non military people in our pantheon of people we should honor.

Nowadays, every person in the military is a hero. When one of the "bad apples" surfaces, there's a big hustle-bustle to explain how the military has a few misfits, but very few.

This is oddly different from when I was in the military. Back then, we all sorts of people who did bad things, committed crimes, etc. It was pretty much a cross-section of society. I don't know how today's military got rid of all those below average types, but it's a real miracle.

Hero is an overused term....and just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is a hero in some cases.

After Tailhook and much publicized hazing incidents, the military has been on a PC/image march ever since. From playboy bunny emblems on the tails of figher aircraft and helmets covered in budweiser stickers with phrases such as "alcoholica, drink'em all", to something a little more sensitive and less testosterone....like rainbows.

Recently in my own command...we were advised that some of the patches on our flight suits might be found offensive to some in the local community.... Time to put my mushroom cloud emblazoned with "got nukes?" back on.

PresWatch:

How does getting shot down and captured qualify someone as a hero?

Well, I'm no historian or anything, but my understanding is something on the order of because of his name (bigshot dad in military) they were going to release him, but he insisted on not leaving until every other prisoner was also released.

Something like that.

Have to agree that none of that makes a whit of difference in becoming POTUS.

Arlington:

Nowadays, every person in the military is a hero. When one of the "bad apples" surfaces, there's a big hustle-bustle to explain how the military has a few misfits, but very few.

This is oddly different from when I was in the military. Back then, we all sorts of people who did bad things, committed crimes, etc. It was pretty much a cross-section of society. I don't know how today's military got rid of all those below average types, but it's a real miracle.

Heh heh. Seems true - especially when you consider the extend to which they have lowered their standards again and again to take people in!

As I recall a common choice given to younger less seasoned convicted criminals was jail or the military. That must be a tough choice......

And Im sure it does a lot of good that EVERY instance of US soldiers murdering civilians in Iraq has managed to avoid a guilty finding somehow goes a long way to improving our image in Iraq. I am willing to believe SOME of the incidents were not our troops but ALL of them?

I guess when a hero does the murdering its just collateral damage. That guy in the closet in Haditha who caught over 20 bulletts was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

As a Marine, I'll be the first to say that not every Soldier, Sailor, Airman, or Marine is a hero. However, we have done a horrible job of saluting true valor in this country. In WWII, every American knew who Audie Murphy or Pappy Boyington or Richard Bong was. How many could say who Jason Dunham or Michael Murphy are (Medal of Honor winners in Iraq and Afghanistan)? How many could tell you what some vapid celebrity is up to? A lot more. Pretty sad. The individuals in the military who the press makes into heroes are either victims or perps, people like Jessica Lynch or Lyndie England. I'd gladly pass up the veteran's discount at the amusment park for a little recognition for the individual heroes of this generation.

And yes, there are great figures in medicine, science, even the arts, I suppose, but very few of them ever die in the course of their duties. To be admired, yes. To be a hero, no. Most of them have not risked or sacrificed in their entire lives as much as some of the people I've known have in a single minute. I'd rather cast my "hero" lot with a serviceman, a policeman, or a firefighter.

"And yes, there are great figures in medicine, science, even the arts, I suppose, but very few of them ever die in the course of their duties. To be admired, yes. To be a hero, no. Most of them have not risked or sacrificed in their entire lives as much as some of the people I've known have in a single minute. I'd rather cast my "hero" lot with a serviceman, a policeman, or a firefighter."

You claim we dont do enough for our "heroes" in the service? The GI Bill alone gives every hero a massive chunk of our tax dollars (not to mention the job preferences when you get out which get a nice little pension too). Every town and city has a memorial and statues and a legion hall-you get your own damn BARS in every place I go! How much is enough? Should I bow and scrape in your presence marine?

Now you mention science and the arts and try to say there is no sacrifice. WRONG. The science heroes gave up a family and many times died a slow death from cancer or other things associated with their science. Artists suffer from depression because simple insensative and shallow people torment them and make their lives a living hell-drug and alcohol issues often follow because the price of such sensativity is too much mental anguish from being able to fit the square peg in the round hole. Sure you laugh at these because you could have died in a second from a bomb or a bullett-but you dont recognize the simplicity and the joy that comes with it--If only I didnt need to deal with earning a living to support my family and my biggest worry was making sure I shot straight......

Its July 4th and I will thank you and every other service person for their service, but when I see that defense budget and my tax bill, and when my buddies who served collect their pension and enjoy that cushy postal job that pays more than most other jobs, I will also remember the price the NON MILITARY pays for your desperate need for thanks by any and every means possible.

RML, the issue at hand isn't money, but a lack of respect for those who truly sacrifice for others. I intentionally speak of those who sacrifice because there are certainly many out of uniform who should be included, and some in uniform who should not when we talk about respecting heroes. Real respect for any who puts others first comes through our own voluntary sacrifice for other people. This does not include forgoing a larger plasma TV, or eating out fewer times each month because you pay taxes. Taxes are compulsory, so while they do help other people through various government programs, paying taxes also keeps you out of jail. Often I think that's the real reason many Americans pay their taxes.

Americans can pay respect for those who serve in many different ways, but the one I want to see the most from Americans is active participation in our government, particularly at the local levels. As Osprey points out, and correctly in my opinion, Americans are disconnected from the military which serves to protect the Constitutional government that Americans mostly ignore.

I don't want yellow ribbons on cars. I don't want VA halls. I could care less about statues. I want Americans to take responsibility and make America a better, stronger, fairer country.

Well said PHB. I wouldn't have replied so "diplomatically" to RMLs post. All I read was a lot of "I don't have what they have", and the most interesting was the blame assigned to "others that aren't artists" for making artists turn to drugs.

Basically, a lot of I, I, I and me, me, me. Hardly the words of one who puts others before himself. Hey, but I could be wrong...RML could be the most philanthropic human on the face of the planet, living in squalor and giving all he earns to the support of those less fortunate.

My point was (and is) that these taxes we pay go in large part to supporting a military CAREER-not service. The Military is set up as one hell of a package deal. For taking the risk of losing your life in combat (highly unlikely these days but possible I admit) you get free college tuition, free room and board, and a fair paycheck. When you get out you get a lifetime pension and preference for many jobs in high paying defense contractors and even the postal service.

Then you get to march in parades in your uniform, point to statues, and as I mentioned even drink in a bar just for you.

But that isnt enough for these military types-they want MORE MORE MORE. More respect-bow and scrape.

Well personally I am sick of it. We left the business of DEFENSE of this nation a long time ago and now we maintain bases on nearly every continent, we defend dictators and despots across the globe with our troops to protect "our" interests (namely the interests of a few corporations who want cheap labor). Our nation has the best technology in the world but we go to a war over "bad intelligence" (not the kind Bush meant I suspect). My point here is that our military is NOT what our founding fathers had in mind-it is what it was in ancient Rome-a career and like all careers, it has "interests" including making sure it has all the best of everything includig what amounts to a job for life (in my opinion it is the biggest union in the USA). Most troops are NOT the ones being shot at or taking major risks (flying a UAV from thousands of miles away is less risky than crossing an NYC street).

And this is the "all volunteer" service now too (again see Rome). These are the people who join for money and benefits-few join just to "serve". They are no fools-they want a college education and they want that job for life. And of course they are suited to the job in most cases. And therein lies the rub-what if you wouldnt do well in the military? What if you arent a hyper agressive person and dont respond well to being told what to do by others? The artists and the scientists are generally people who dont respond well to being ordered about-their thought process works differently-they could never hope to function well in the service-but see liberal thinking understands we all have our place and our talents, this is why liberals got us to victory in WWII and envirioned and got us to the moon with Apollo.

All this I, I, I, and Me Me Me isnt about that. I dont ask you to thank me for a damn thing but what I do saves thousands of lives every day. Since it isnt a direct action you would say Im just one of those thankless liberals who should kiss your ass. Well I am tired of being told I need to hold someone up as a hero because they put on a uniform-there are dirty cops, lazy firefighters, and useless spud peelers in the service and there are people in science, medicine, and art who have helped and inspired millions. Where are the statues of these people? Where are their bars? Why isnt the government making sure they never find themselves without a job?

Sorry folks but this country hasnt been in a REAL war since Korea. Our military budget is bloated with salaries for fat and useless officers and to fund useless expensive defense contractor deals while the working men and women of our military are the ones needing support of all kinds-so we send them off to Walter Reed-we order that the caskets coming home dont get shown-just give that idiot more more and more because dammit he "served". Forget the guy who designed the body armour which saves hundreads of troops daily, forget the modern technology that lets you send model planes to do the work once done where you get shot down, forget the medical miracles and those who perform them-they are just damned civilians who never "served".

Next time you call the civilians you serve ungrateful, go into battle naked because that is where you would be without us. You talk like some overpaid quarterback who doesnt thank his forward line or his defense in a game-as if what YOU do is a singularly critical role without which the rest of this nation couldnt function. Guess what troops--When Osama send a landing craft to the beaches of US shores I can get my rifle and fight him off. In the mean time, he can keep his desert.

How the hell can you demand I show you more respect when you dont respect what I do or who I am? You dont. Yet you demand that I show you respect. Well personally I respect those who respect me. Until then, you get my money and the other stuff I mentioned and in my opinion, it is enough.

Look, I don't want any thanks. Part of what I am getting at is that in our "everyone's a hero" mindset, we don't honor the heroism of individuals, as we did in the past. I really don't need a bunch of yellow ribbons and "I support the troops" stickers. Support the troops--enlist. Or at the very least, be part of your local volunteer fire department, police auxiliary, coast guard auxiliary, whatever.

Artists "sacrifice" by being so damn sensitive they committ suicide? Were you kidding? Look, I like a pretty drawing as much as the next guy, but if your feelings are so volatile that your art puts you on the verge of a psychotic break, put down the paintbrush; I've got a sweater with no hand holes I need you to put on.

The scientists and doctors who cure diseases, discover new stars, find new subatomic particles--I have the utmost respect for. That makes you a great scientist. Some, like Galileo and Copernicus, ran real risks to their well-being by virtue of their discoveries. Some doctors go into the field to treat infectious diseases. Those guys--heroes.

If you want to define "hero" by someone being really, really good at something, fine. All scientists are "heroes," too. So are pro football players, lawyers arguing at the Supreme Court, and that barrista at the coffee shop--that guy can make an expresso machine sing! That, not saluting the troops, is making the term "hero," meaningless.

In my opinion, one who risks something for a noble goal is a hero. Being that one's physical safety is usually the greatest thing one can risk, servicemen, cops, and firefighters have a built in edge. Those who risk their livelihoods and reputation can be heroes as well. Solzinitsyn (sp?) was a writer and a hero, for example. That's a hero artist, not some sissy sitting around being sensitive.

People enter the service because it's a job, sure. But most of these kids are smarter than average, even though many are from places where they "cling to religion and their guns." Contrary to the belief of many liberal elites, someone can come from a small town, maybe even have a Southern accent, and be smart. They had other options, but they chose to serve. They aren't all "Heroes" with a capital H, but they all put their asses on the line. And most of them, like me would forgo some of the empty "thanks" they get, in exchange for recoginizing the bravest among them, like Dunham, Murphy, Kosal, Chontosh, etc. Never heard of them, huh? Wonder why. America is too busy reading People magazing to realize there's a war on.

Also, to the one who said we haven't had a real war since Korea--you could have fooled me. I know men and women who aren't around anymore who would disagree. Just because we defeat our opponents doesn't make it less of a fight. Just because a substantial minority in this country is rooting for defeat doesn't make it right.

What is it you do RML that you need to be thanked for? Are you not satisfied enough about what you do that you have become envious of the treatment others are getting. Maybe I can identify in some way your direct contribution to my very existence.

I'm Navy, E-6B aircrew....whatcha got for me RML that directly contributes to my existence besides paying taxes, I do that too.