I've watched Marine aviator forward air controllers talk their brothers in arms, flying fast and hot, parallel to my lines on numerous occassions. Dumping nape and snake on target - - "get some, awsome."

I spent multiple tours as an enlisted man and a commissioned officer pounding the ground in Vietnam. For Fred Kaplan to state, grunts hate fly boys is out of line.

I never depended on air; I planned for it's non-availability due to knowing it could become overstetched, but that said, when I needed it, it was mostly there for me.

Most pilots and aviators are capable of assuming greater leadership roles and duty assignments. They just prefer to fly; just as a true infantry officer would rather command then work a staff job.

Senator McCain didn't fly CAS (close air support). He bombed from altitude. Frankly, the Marine Corps only wants Marines delivering CAS to them. All others are rank amateurs at providing CAS. If the Army has an issue with the Air Force, work it out as adults.

The Marine Corps has issues with the Navy lack of providing surface fire support. They're trying to work it out like grown men.

If Senator McCain wants to bring his past service into the equation, then he should state what it is about that service, that uniquely qualifies him for president. I only hear generalities.

That stated, anyone should have the right to question back, in a respecful and tactfull manner, which General Clark did.

Senator McCain's captivity as a P.O.W. has more to do with character. His service is an aviator and other duties as a Naval Officer may have a bearing on leadership and magagement.

As for General Clark? He lets his alligator mouth overload his canary asshole - - but, I'm sure his IQ is above mine. I think some of his observations on present events have merit.

As for Fred Kaplan? I think he must have been in between articles and thrown this one out in haste.

I'm going to vote for the candidate that I think will screw-up the country the least. I don't think either is going to be able to do much given what one of them is going to walk into.

I think both have attractive wives, do we give points out for that : - )

Dad was an FO during his first tour in Vietnam, doesn't talk much about it...but as far as air support went, the Skyraider was his preferred angel.

He was also on the Mullinix providing some of that offshore gunfire, DD 944...the last "all-guns" tin can to serve the Navy.

Rubma, that would put your Father off-shore, Vietnam (Yankee Station) about 1966 or so - - "fire mission!"

Chao ong intersurfa. Are you interested in the Vietnam War? I was on the losing side, but I tried hard : - }

I Corps, 1st ANGLICO Sub-Unit 1. I keep forgetting the Marine outfit he was assigned to...69-70 time frame.

Every once in a while he'll let a story out...I don't know too terribly much of his experience. All I know is he isn't interested in seeing the wall, visiting Vietnam, or talking too much about it...seen him close to tears when he does talk about it.

Happy 4th of July Rubma. I'm sure you've stood down for the holiday, the enemy isn't without feelings : - }

I'm quite familiar with Sub Unit-1, 1st ANGLICO. Now it makes more sense to me. During your Father's time, he still had 8" and 16" naval rifles to call upon. To see a sheaf of 8" naval gun fire bracket a target is something to behold. Alas, like me, it's a thing of the past : - |

One minor sticking-point: it's a gun (not high angle) so it comes in on a flat trajectory and fast. One doesn't want to be in the same grid square as there is some margin for errorl I've even seen the projectiles skip!

You have a good one too Tyro, and no....we aren't stood down. Sitting in a hooch right now on alert and away from home. "Prepared" for the unthinkable.

"prepared for the unthinkable"

what? An oil discovery in North Korea?

The last legit war ended when the bombs exploded over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Any US deployment since not involving the UN's request has been illegal and unneccessary.

Anyone who says different is a damned liar.

The cease fire that was signed by the US and Iraq was a treaty, and Iraq had it's obligations and the US had it's own. By international law, if Iraq can't uphold it's end of the treaty, we are no longer obligated to uphold our end of the treaty...therefore legally ending our obligation to uphold a cease fire.

And RML, look up the E-6B....do some reading, get an idea of what I may be on alert for. I've given you all the tools...your wit will only get you so far, how's it working out for you?

Honestly Rubma-chances of a massive nuclear attack against the USA is?

Any idea how much jet fuel you expend flying around just in case China decides it doesnt want to be Wal Marts biggest supplier anymore? After all, China is pretty much the only country capable of launching a strike worthy of the E-6 mission.

Wanna impress me, show me how you can locate a nuke in a container ship before it gets to the US shores in an undefended port. Show me how you can stop terrorists from sneaking over the undefended US border with a bunch of Mexicans.

Wanna talk about risks Rubma? The man who told me NOT to join the military back when I was 18 and all ready to join the air force was a gunner in a B-24 over Germany (the most under appreciated bomber ever-overshadowed by the B-17 in WWII mythology)-the average sorte came back with 60-70% of its planes and was exposed to so much flack that even the planes that returned often had a few dead airmen in it. In those days you took a REAL risk when going to war. That man loved his country and despised what he saw done to it under Nixon and he told me what it meant. He reminded me I could do a lot for my country without signing up and he reminded me that IF THE NEED ARISES and I felt the cause was right I could always sign up then.

Make no mistake-like me or hate me-I would die in defense of my country. In DEFENSE of my country Rubma. Its been a long time since since the need was there. The need today is for homeland security of our rights and our freedom and the battle is being fought by liberals here at home even as conservatives strive to make this a police state once described as the way life as in Russia-tapped phone lines, no privacy, neighbors reporting on neighbors. The war is within the borders Rubma-not without.

Kent State will forever stain the serice Rubma. The US government will kill you for the wrong free speech and do so with extreme prejudice. Any claim of the military being the representative and protector of US citizes and free speech was pissed away a long time ago.

I will always do what I can to save the lives of you and any other member of the US military because I will always believe that your intentions are good-but no I will NOT believe that those at the top are neccessarily acting in the best interests of our nation. Too much history gives any intelligent person pause.

Thanks for defending us Rubma-really. But please consider reality before you over inflate your role.

PS Rubma-the deal with Iraq was UN deal-not a US deal.

IF Iraq was in violation of the agreement, it was not for the US to arbitarily break the cease fire and ignore the UN.

The United States violated the agreement. The war is illegal. It was based on a claim that Saddam had WMD (he did not) and that he was complicit in 9/11 (he was not).

This doesnt mean Saddam was a nice guy. In fact no one was sorry to see him go. But remember that at one point in time we were giving him millions of dollars, weapons, and intelligence to fight Iran. The photo of him shaking Don Rummsfeld's hand is especially telling of who got Saddam into power and who kept him there for a long time-the US of A.

And in case you didnt know, Osama Bin Laden also got where he is with out help.

In short Rubma, the USA makes many of its own worst enemies.

Too true RML, deterrence is such an intangible mission. We/I will never know if we have deterred anything, or even how many times we have deterred anything. We are Cold War through and through...but apparently, someone with a lot more access to information than I feels it's still an important enough mission to keep us around. Not my call...

And simply flying in a B-24 was inherently more risky than what I fly in....even without the flak. This is a good thing. But aviation as a whole is inherently dangerous and terribly unforgiving. Takeoffs are optional, landings are mandatory.

And Kent State is over and done with...get over it. I had nothing to do with it....so no need to paint me or my brothers and sisters with that brush.

But it is nice to know your hero wore the uniform. My grandfather flew in B-24s during WWII also.

"And Kent State is over and done with...get over it. I had nothing to do with it....so no need to paint me or my brothers and sisters with that brush."

It isnt painting anyone Rubma. It is a reminder to you and to anyone else who claims the US military serves the citizens of this nation. If the CIC orders it you will fire on unarmed civilians.

You and I both hope it never happens again. But the fact remains that it has and for a whole lot less reason than one would have imagined.

Were you aware that US troops were also used to slaughter unarmed men, women, and children who wouldnt stop striking against Carnagie back in the industrial age?

The fact is that the person in power can use the military any way they want.

I have always had an affection for the US space program and I came very close to being in the USAF-scored well on the ASVABS and was heavily recruited once they learned I had an interest. I imagine my liberal leanings would have made life hell there, but the fact is that I remain an ardent supporter of the space program and as I told you more than once I do what I can for the military without breaking my personal oath about truth to power.

When I have more personal time I plan to write a screenplay about the man I mentioned and the B-24 and will try to capitalize on Hollywoods love of WWII. I think the B-24 deserves a little love and I have an old atlas with 50 one sentence notes about each mission he survived. I miss the old man a lot and I hope Im doing him proud. But keep in mind Rubma it was never the uniform-he answered the call to defend his nation on his terms-not someone elses. He sold all his medals and he kept very little from those days. A young boy asked him about it often and he finally spoke of it-a job he had to do because his family and his country were in very real danger from a very real enemy.

When you are back stateside I recommend you check out the Collings Foundation. I got the chance to experience a flight in a B-24.....wow.

<link>

Stay safe Rubma. Much as you and others consider me the enemy I will never cease the battle at home and the desire to see you back with your families until you are truly needed.

I think you use the Kent State event out of context. It is not an example of our government using the military to exact deadly force on dissent, and at will. There were some actions taken in the past, especially when American workers were beginning to organize into unions. The Railroad strike of 1877 and the Pullman strike are great examples. And in these cases, the military was called in to put down an organized and armed civilian populace.

There is still speculation that a shot fired from somewhere else "spooked" those troops into shooting. There is also the idea that those troops were positioned with intent and ordered to fire. Either way, I don't see it happening today. Kent State was the catalyst for police and military researching and investing in non-lethal technology.